Why do passive speakers still exist?

[JiiPee]

Does your Linn need updates to keep up with streaming services' APIs? Does it support all of them?

I don't keep a list of all streaming services and all available APIs, so I can't answer to that question. All I know is that it is still perfectly usable with the services relevant to me, and I see no need to replace it.

Another thing is that music service APIs are not really that complicated. As long as Linn stays in business of making streamers and developing API support required by the markets, making the support bit backward compatible is generally speaking not a huge effort in this particular case.

 

[Galliardist]

Does your Linn need updates to keep up with streaming services' APIs? Does it support all of them?

Does it matter, as long as it has the same facilities when bought, and is secure as far as any networks it connects to? It does the same job as ten years ago, and if the review here is anything to go by, it does it just as, um, well.

But no, no streamer APIs. It does DLNA over Ethernet, BYO streamer.

If we must, let's imagine an upgradable active setup. Would it not look like, say, the Linn active Saras and Isobariks from the 1970s?

External active crossover, amps, speaker box (defeatable or alternative passive crossover, if you must).
Those old Linns can be updated today: newer power amps, and a DEQX or MiniDSP crossover (or computer based one) instead of the supplied one, giving you all the modern facilities today.

The only weakness is that you can't get replacement drivers easily with the same mounts.

It could be done back when dinosaurs walked the flat earth. Why not today?

 

[JiiPee]

Does it matter, as long as it has the same facilities when bought, and is secure as far as any networks it connects to? It does the same job as ten years ago, and if the review here is anything to go by, it does it just as, um, well.

But no, no streamer APIs. It does DLNA over Ethernet, BYO streamer.

If we must, let's imagine an upgradable active setup. Would it not look like, say, the Linn active Saras and Isobariks from the 1970s?

External active crossover, amps, speaker box (defeatable or alternative passive crossover, if you must).
Those old Linns can be updated today: newer power amps, and a DEQX or MiniDSP crossover (or computer based one) instead of the supplied one, giving you all the modern facilities today.

The only weakness is that you can't get replacement drivers easily with the same mounts.

It could be done back when dinosaurs walked the flat earth. Why not today?

To be precise, Linn DS-I is a streamer (besides being also an amplifier). To support it, Linn has also developed control point applications for services like Qobuz etc...

I think the DS-I example is relevant here, because it has a similar role as the integrated streaming capabilities in speakers like KEF LS60 and Dynaudio Focus etc...

 

[Pearljam5000]

Beyond firmware support
And to me even more important
Spare parts and being able to fix the actives
As far as I know only Genelec fixes and has spare parts even for 30 years old monitors.

 

[JiiPee]

Beyond firmware support
And to me even more important
Spare parts and being able to fix the actives
As far as I know only Genelec fixes and has spare parts even for 30 years old monitors.

AFAIK, Genelec uses Pascal Class D plate amplifiers, as do some other active studio monitor manufacturers. Also Dynaudio Focus series uses Pascals. Considering that they are quite widely used and that Pascal operates on B-to-B model, I think Pascal will maintain reasonable spare parts inventory.

 

[Purité Audio]

I just mean that if you have a passive and an active version (LS50 Meta and Wireless II for example) the active version should not be worse than the passive version.
The actives shouldn't have a worse frequency response or have higher distortion than the passive version (with a powerful enough amp of course).

Made that comparison with the original LS50 and LS50 wireless, RME dac AHB2 amp for the passives, active version was better.
Manufacturers make what sells, there is a market for passives simply because listeners have swallowed the idea that there is a perpetual ‘upgrade’ path, if you look at Amir’s reviews you will see instantly that there is not , components with inaudible amounts of distortion sound, guess what identical.
Keith

 

[Galliardist]

To be precise, Linn DS-I is a streamer (besides being also an amplifier). To support it, Linn has also developed control point applications for services like Qobuz etc...

I think the DS-I example is relevant here, because it has a similar role as the integrated streaming capabilities in speakers like KEF LS60 and Dynaudio Focus etc...

As I pointed out, the DS-1 has DNLA streaming. I’m not aware that code for APIs have been added to the internal firmware updates, but as an owner you’d know more than me.

What of a Linn owner who wanted MQA though, to give one example? I agree with why they don’t do MQA, but it shows the difficulty here.

 

[JiiPee]

As I pointed out, the DS-1 has DNLA streaming. I’m not aware that code for APIs have been added to the internal firmware updates, but as an owner you’d know more than me.

What of a Linn owner who wanted MQA though, to give one example? I agree with why they don’t do MQA, but it shows the difficulty here.

Without going deeper to the MQA-controversy, the issue Linn has with MQA is not technical. It is about the concept/business model. To my best understanding it is possible to listen Tidal MQA-files on Linn via Roon. The end result is apparently roughly CD-quality, but I have not tested this myself, as I don't find it very interesting...

 

[sigbergaudio]

Example of what happens to smart/active speakers long term:

https://edition.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/electronics/sonos-legacy-speakers-guide#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20a%20long,and%20end%20support%20for%20them.

Sonos I would say is actually a good example of the opposite (at least comparing to the claimed maximum of 4-5 years support). The legacy Sonos speakers (released 2013) still works and they have currently not announced that they will stop doing so.

 

[sigbergaudio]

That is not the same. We are talking about product support/sw updates timeline, not about music medium longevity.

Active speakers without lots of software that will go out of date do exist.

The core functionality (DSP/active crossover) won't stop working, and if you connect with XLR there is no reason this won't still work 20 years from now.

 

[JiiPee]

Some additional thoughts considering smart speakers.

Of course, active speakers with integrated streaming capability will eventually reach the point when new upgrades are not anymore provided. Maybe not because of lacking spare parts, or planned obsolescence, but because the Industry is used to constant growth of computing power and memory capacity, and therefore the applications get more and more bloated. Eventually the old integrated hardware simply does not have enough muscle to execute the latest stuff.

However, the old speakers can still be perfectly functional, they just can't do all the tricks that younger generation can. Vinyl players are arguably obsolete technology, but many of us still find them satisfying.

 

[Angsty]

The continuum between "active" speakers and "smart" speakers should be noted. One of my favorite actives is the Paradigm Active/20, which are still usable 25 years after initial release. The LS60 is more aligned to a "smart" speaker for the level of processing software it has in it, which will limit its economic lifespan. The addition of DSP to an active speaker moves it further down the continuum towards "smart" status.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@Angsty That depends on how the DSP is implemented I guess? DSP by itself isn't something that will stop working over time?

 

[Angsty]

@Angsty That depends on how the DSP is implemented I guess? DSP by itself isn't something that will stop working over time?

I'd agree; it's a continuum. DSP that is self-contained is likely to last longer than DSP that relies on an external smartphone to manage settings.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

(smiling crookedly)
Well, here we have 50 pages of highly scientific discussion.
So, why do those stupid engineers and businessmen still design, manufacture and sell passive speakers?
This is a serious scientific question.
You know, I'm something of a scientist myself.
...(not too long to cite but too scientific)...
So, if you ever find yourself in doubt about why the passive loudspeakers are still exist, just find an anthill, and ....
You'll thank me later.

 

[Angsty]

So, why do those stupid engineers and businessmen still design, manufacture and sell passive speakers?

Because people like us still buy them.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Sonos I would say is actually a good example of the opposite (at least comparing to the claimed maximum of 4-5 years support). The legacy Sonos speakers (released 2013) still works and they have currently not announced that they will stop doing so.

That was AFAIK only because of the uprising from customers and media. Their hands were tied. They would've cut support then if not people offended.

 

[Martin]

In a world where amazing active speakers / monitors exist, why do passive speakers not only continue to exist but are almost 90% of all speakers sold ( i guess).
What are the benefits of a passive speaker vs an active one?

I could ask the contradicting question: why do active speakers still exist? I've seen far too many instances of internal amplifiers failing. I have a pair of KRK Rokit 6 G2 speakers that I quite liked which are now worthless because one of the amps is fried. Never had that issue with my passive speakers.

Real answer - two different use cases. I use active speakers with my computer / near-field setup, passives with my stereo, and a combination with my home theater, passive speakers and active subwoofers.

I like actives the way that Linkwitz and JBL (high end) does them - passive speakers with amplifiers and crossovers in separate boxes.

Martin

 

[dfuller]

Beyond firmware support
And to me even more important
Spare parts and being able to fix the actives
As far as I know only Genelec fixes and has spare parts even for 30 years old monitors.

ATC does this as well; they're not necessarily in the same realm of technical perfection, but they do the long term support thing well.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I could ask the contradicting question: why do active speakers still exist? I've seen far too many instances of internal amplifiers failing. I have a pair of KRK Rokit 6 G2 speakers that I quite liked which are now worthless because one of the amps is fried. Never had that issue with my passive speakers.

Real answer - two different use cases. I use active speakers with my computer / near-field setup, passives with my stereo, and a combination with my home theater, passive speakers and active subwoofers.

I like actives the way that Linkwitz and JBL (high end) does them - passive speakers with amplifiers and crossovers in separate boxes.

Martin

Yeah I wouldn't use KRK as an example for failing amps
You can barely hear about Genelecs, Neumanns , ATCs failing