Why are active crossovers uncommon in home audio?

[EERecordist]

Welcome to ASR.

I think you are right, most home audio customers don't want to design their own speakers.

Active crossovers are almost universal in pro-PA sound, and are common in pro studio monitors. On ASR, if you go to Review Index > select Speakers > search for Powered, you will find many reviews.

For DIY, there are many DSP 2- and 3- way plate amps based on Hypex and Ice Power, two class-d amplifier module manufacturers. Dayton makes DSP plate amps, and the miniDSP has one using ICE Power. Plate amps seem to include a premium, probably because they are low manufacturing volume.

The Analog Devices SHARC DSP chips are inexpensive and make crossovers easy to design.

At home I use a pro-PA active processor, the DBX Driverack. The current version has a pad app which makes it easier to use. I use it to cross over to my sub. If you don't mind rack mount, and you don't need a choice of crossover filter types and slopes, the Driverack is often available on the second hand market. Behringer has a lower price one and Lake Processing from Lab Gruppen has a much more expensive one. Other pro sound companies have them sometimes under loudspeaker management.

Parts Express has small preamp/crossovers from Dayton, ART, and Rolls.

Since you are going down the DIY route, you might look into the free software Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated microphone to tune your system, you may have used it before in car audio. Design of Active Crossovers by Doug Self is a good reference.

 

[Devnull]

Post a few companies and examples.

Off the top of my head, JBL M2 have a number of different config files available depending on what hardware is used for management.

 

[brombo]

Both my systems are active using miniDSP Flex 8 for LX421.4 and CBT36K -

 

[JohnnyNG]

it seems like active crossover options are fairly limited in a home audio setting, and a lot more expensive. Mini-DSP looks like a popular option (as it was in cars too) but otherwise it looks like you need to spend several thousand dollars for any good options,

This one's not cheap but not thousands.

K231 Stereo 3-Way Active Crossover

The K231 Stereo Electronic Crossover significantly improves the audio quality of your sound system by separating the high, mid and low frequency sounds using ultra low noise, high precision active filter circuits. This allows the use of a separate power amplifier channel for each speaker driver...

sublimeacoustic.com

Not sure how it measures (I won't part with mine long enough to send it to Amir) but it sounds quiet and clean in my setup.

 

[vactor]

crazy that it's so difficult to find a 4 channel DSP amplifier for under $1000 usd that has a full DSP and 4x100 watts of power into 4 ohms with built in bluetooth for home audio.

 

[Keith_W]

crazy that it's so difficult to find a 4 channel DSP amplifier for under $1000 usd that has a full DSP and 4x100 watts of power into 4 ohms with built in bluetooth for home audio.

1. A product like that does not exist. Not under $1k at least. If you want a multichannel amp with built-in DSP, you have to look at pro audio amps like Powersoft. But those amps have other problems, such as absolutely dismal SINAD and specialized pro audio features, like Dante and non-standard speaker outputs. You have to program its DSP with Audio Weaver. Meaning it's consumer unfriendly. And definitely no Bluetooth.

2. Even if a product like that did exist, I would not want one. The reason: DSP chips are computers, and computers evolve. Within a few years, your DSP chip will be obsolete. But amplifiers don't evolve. A 50 year old amplifier can still be pressed into service in a modern system. I prefer not to overpay for features I don't want on an amplifier.

FWIW, my Yamaha PX series pro audio amplifier has built-in DSP which is extremely rudimentary. I have disabled it in favour of DSP I have implemented upstream.

 

[vactor]

and yet the car audio DSP seems to be quite advanced:
-fully selectable crossovers types and slopes
-individual output time alignment / delay
-36 bands of individual parametric eq with selectable filters including notch and shelf filters
-available all pass filters
-available auto measure and EQ to target
-and much much more all for relatively low prices.

even if you are just adding a subwoofer, all of these things would be invaluable in home audio. just kind of shocking that there's no market for this.

i mean, Minidsp seems to be alone in this area, but ... they're only ok and quite lacking in many areas, and not cost competitive.

 

[Sokel]

1. A product like that does not exist. Not under $1k at least. If you want a multichannel amp with built-in DSP, you have to look at pro audio amps like Powersoft. But those amps have other problems, such as absolutely dismal SINAD and specialized pro audio features, like Dante and non-standard speaker outputs. You have to program its DSP with Audio Weaver. Meaning it's consumer unfriendly. And definitely no Bluetooth.

2. Even if a product like that did exist, I would not want one. The reason: DSP chips are computers, and computers evolve. Within a few years, your DSP chip will be obsolete. But amplifiers don't evolve. A 50 year old amplifier can still be pressed into service in a modern system. I prefer not to overpay for features I don't want on an amplifier.

FWIW, my Yamaha PX series pro audio amplifier has built-in DSP which is extremely rudimentary. I have disabled it in favour of DSP I have implemented upstream.

I agree, mostly.
What we don't get sometimes though, is the fact that these days a computer in front of you equals work. People's minds cannot rest at the sight of it, it's the power of habit.
Imagine you spend time and recourses for a nice treated dedicated room which essentially has one use, to alter your reality, to place you at the realm of music. A PC screen can destroy that to some people, they think "office" at the sight of it.

So standalone solutions do have a place. If they can also accept analog (or not, a pocket miniDSP costs nothing and works standalone) even better.
The key here is set and forget. That's the ideal.

 

[vactor]

I agree, mostly.
What we don't get sometimes though, is the fact that these days a computer in front of you equals work. People's minds cannot rest at the sight of it, it's the power of habit.
Imagine you spend time and recourses for a nice treated dedicated room which essentially has one use, to alter your reality, to place you at the realm of music. A PC screen can destroy that to some people, they think "office" at the sight of it.

So standalone solutions do have a place. If they can also accept analog (or not, a pocket miniDSP costs nothing and works standalone) even better.
The key here is set and forget. That's the ideal.

but the laptop gets closed once the initial tuning and setup are done. you can tweak (i hear the lack of tweakability is something home audio people like, hence the dearth of powered speakers). and then you get to enjoy the results.

 

[Roland68]

and yet the car audio DSP seems to be quite advanced:
-fully selectable crossovers types and slopes
-individual output time alignment / delay
-36 bands of individual parametric eq with selectable filters including notch and shelf filters
-available all pass filters
-available auto measure and EQ to target
-and much much more all for relatively low prices.

even if you are just adding a subwoofer, all of these things would be invaluable in home audio. just kind of shocking that there's no market for this.

i mean, Minidsp seems to be alone in this area, but ... they're only ok and quite lacking in many areas, and not cost competitive.

And with your last sentence, you hit the nail on the head, because MiniDSP products are indeed among the cheapest on the market.
Firstly, they are still niche products, and secondly, these products are incredibly development-intensive and therefore extremely expensive for the manufacturer even before a single unit has been sold.
Software development is expensive and costs a lot of money. It requires skilled personnel. Spread across a small number of devices, this drives the sales price to dizzying heights.

The current example of the Topping DX5 II clearly shows the enormous difficulties even experienced DAC manufacturers can have with this topic, and this is just a simple 2-channel PEQ.

My recommendation: use a software solution. Fewer limitations, almost freely scalable, and adaptable to your needs at any time.
Alternatively, there are many devices in the pro audio sector. Take a look at the DSP devices from Thomann.
You can add Bluetooth functionality anywhere in high quality for €/$30-50.

 

[Devnull]

I agree, mostly.
What we don't get sometimes though, is the fact that these days a computer in front of you equals work. People's minds cannot rest at the sight of it, it's the power of habit.
Imagine you spend time and recourses for a nice treated dedicated room which essentially has one use, to alter your reality, to place you at the realm of music. A PC screen can destroy that to some people, they think "office" at the sight of it.

So standalone solutions do have a place. If they can also accept analog (or not, a pocket miniDSP costs nothing and works standalone) even better.
The key here is set and forget. That's the ideal.

I would probably take it one step further. The standalone solution needs to have a web based interface built-in. Needing to download an app which can be arbitrarily obsoleted or needing software on a PC which has the potential to not be supported on future operating systems are necessary for true stand alone systems.

My BSS pro sound interfaces still work perfectly but require a virtual PC to run the software. Anything I get in the future must have a built-in interface with nothing external required except for a web browser.

 

[Multiway]

Agree with reasons above 'most' do not do it.
That doesn't mean anyone shouldn't, given the interest and ability to learn.

I've been active DSP XO since 2012.
The excellent DIYAudio Najda 3/4 in 8 out. Developed from DIYaudioer's requirements.
Sadly development of that came to an end in 2018.
We might have seen it soar to new heights (thus only occupied by the eye wateringly expensive DEQX or many channelled Trinnov).

miniDSP of yore never sounded very good.
This is largely addressed by the recent Flex series.
I've had one here for extended evaluation but it didn't get me to part with my tricked up Najda SQ wise!

Now there is a new kid on the block.
Using a more powerful processor and very nice DAC chips.
They quote very low distortion.

The CoLinear DSP-8C.

It's a bit more expensive than miniDSP (that was built on a tight profit budget).
The DSP-8C shares most of the other's features..
Only so many ways to peel a potato

I am going to buy one soon to find out.

 

[Bloomer]

It’s quite odd that eliminating passive crossovers and requiring a specific cross over and amp per channel hasn’t taken off at the ‘high end’ of consumer audio since it represents the opportunity to sell the customer more stuff.

I guess one thing is that it’s fairly difficult to damage a speaker with a passive crossover where as it’s very easy to incorrectly connect a system that requires external crossovers and fry the speakers.

High end audio seems to be partonized more by those with the means to play with the equipment than those with the technical abilities and desire to mess with stuff, do impedance scans of drivers to set crossover points, etc. The second category likely includes very few. Home Theater is so ubiquitous when I got back into the hobby a few years ago (kids grew up, destruction factor was gone), I wasn't sure high fi stuff even still existed, HT marketing smothered all else so effectively.

 

[brombo]

Consider the marketing model. For passive speakers you get to choose the amps, pre-amps, dacs, etc.. For active speakers (purchased systems not DIY) the speaker manufacture chooses the amps, dacs, dsp, etc.. Examples would be the commercial version of the LX521.4 or any of the active studio monitors. I would love to compare the Genelec 8381A against the Wilsons or other ultra high end systems -

8381A SAM™ Adaptive Point Source Main Monitor - Genelec.com

Our 8381A empowers engineers and creators to perceive every sonic detail, offering true-to-life sound level and dynamics – with the full flexibility of free-standing monitor placement and advanced room adaption.

www.genelec.com

Also consider Amir's review of the 8361a -

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/genelec-8361a-review-powered-monitor.28039/

Starting in the 1970's I have built three active speaker systems (two from kits the CBT36K, the LX521.4, and one from scratch) the only main passive system I had was the Carver Amazing Loudspeaker.

 

[Roland68]

Now there is a new kid on the block.
Using a more powerful processor and very nice DAC chips.
They quote very low distortion.

The CoLinear DSP-8C.

It's a bit more expensive than miniDSP (that was built on a tight profit budget).
The DSP-8C shares most of the other's features..
Only so many ways to peel a potato

I am going to buy one soon to find out.

I'd completely forgotten about the CoLinear DSP-8C, even though I originally wanted to order it.
Do you know when it's supposed to be available?

@vactor
CoLinear is also planning a DSP-4C, which will probably be cheaper. That could be the ideal device for you.
You might have to add Bluetooth yourself, but that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Multiway]

I'd completely forgotten about the CoLinear DSP-8C, even though I originally wanted to order it.
Do you know when it's supposed to be available?

@vactor
CoLinear is also planning a DSP-4C, which will probably be cheaper. That could be the ideal device for you.
You might have to add Bluetooth yourself, but that shouldn't be a problem.

It is available now.
Has already had one firmware update that improved FIR use I believe it was.

I spoke at length with Oliver (Director) about the 8C and it's history, capabilities and evolution.

They are working on the 4C version.

 

[john61ct]

A bit off topic, but not much

I am after a solution where the bass management is part of the power amp, and I also was amazed at how rare this is in the home audiophile market.

Fortunately the use case is DC power, off grid so I CAN just use mobile audio gear, but I not only need decent watts & amps but want good objective SQ

I came across the Polk PA-D4000.4 live the features, but need "a bit" more current / power into 8Ω (stable below 4Ω) and would also like better SQ esp SINAD

Is JL Audio really the bees' knees? pricey! and no, I'd rather avoid separate line-level DSP at least for now.

I started this thread

ISO DC-powered but SQ high current power amps w/bass-mgmnt

In search of reco's for a 5.2 system, main pair being OG LS50, so likely adding a pair of mid-to-bass reinforcement boxen depending how high FR the subs go (not that relevant here ) Just as an example for comparison, I came across the 4-channel Polk Audio PA-D4000. 125W RMS x 4 at 4Ω, 200W @...

www.audiosciencereview.com

please feel free to answer there or here as you like, TIA!

 

[Keith_W]

Subwoofers typically suffer from higher latency than main speakers. The solution is to delay the main speakers to match the sub. If you have DSP on your subs only, there is no way to delay the main speakers. Worse, DSP adds additional latency so it has the potential to delay the sub even more. For some unlucky people, the additional delay is enough to make the sub sound "slow" or "disconnected". YMMV of course. But you would be better off implementing DSP for the whole system.

FWIW, there are many power amps with built-in DSP - you are just looking at the wrong places Most pro audio amps have built-in DSP, e.g. Powersoft amps. Even my humble Yamaha PX-series pro audio power amp has DSP. The downside is that the SINAD / THD+N is usually absolutely woeful, bad enough that you could potentially hear it if you have sensitive speakers. The other downside is that the DSP is difficult to program - some pro audio DSP uses very consumer unfriendly software and you really need to know what you are doing!

 

[Mnyb]

I would argue that active crossover are not as uncommon as they once where . But for home audio they arrive in the form of prebuilt active speakers often digital and DSP based .

20 years ago it was basically Meridian that delivered these kinds of speakers for home hifi and it was at the expensive end of the market.

Now you see them far more often KEF has 4-5 variants that I’m familiar with . There are more if you look for them .

But still not very common, but not unicorns and there is basically no options for home theater ( there are some very rare options )

 

[john61ct]

FWIW, there are many power amps with built-in DSP - you are just looking at the wrong places Most pro audio amps have built-in DSP, e.g. Powersoft amps. Even my humble Yamaha PX-series pro audio power amp has DSP.

I need DC powered, haven't seen much in that category either.

Hence top end car / RV / yacht niche gear?

But I don't see much higher power than the Polk