Why do passive speakers still exist?

[juliangst]

How many kef blade or revel salon customers really want to 'match components' and want to use tube amps and stuff like that?
Are they still the majority or do most customers just get any amp or AVR for speakers in this price range?

Brands like B&O are making actives for a while now and they are quite popular; Speakers like Kef LS60 or Dynaudio Focus are also getting a lot of attention.
I would also prefer every speaker to be active but every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho

 

[Pearljam5000]

How many kef blade or revel salon customers really want to 'match components' and want to use tube amps and stuff like that?
Are they still the majority or do most customers just get any amp or AVR for speakers in this price range?

Brands like B&O are making actives for a while now and they are quite popular; Speakers like Kef LS60 or Dynaudio Focus are also getting a lot of attention.
I would also prefer every speaker to be active but every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho

The question is :
is a KEF system (speakers +DAC+amp) that costs $10K is as good as or better than Genelec 8361 that also cost $10K

 

[Galliardist]

Two 2 channel Tpa3255 boards for two 2-way active speakers - 60 dollars , digital crossover card (sigma studio ) - 25 dollars - two power supplies = 50 dollars - Done !

Good passive crossover components are much more expensive than 25 bucks.

I note that you carefully avoid the knowledge bit… and I have three way speakers, so the price would be a bit higher as well.

Your cost is actually $160 dollars, plus wiring and tools if I don’t have them, and the interface to program the board.. I’d also need fixtures and plugs for the box, probably tools to modify the box to install them.

My wife would insist that the budget for any DIY project I “do” includes the cost of getting in a professional to do it again properly afterwards, but that bit’s just me I suppose.

And all for no real gain, and maybe a negative result (I’m sure if Genelecs end up with tweeter hiss…)

I think I’ll still pass.

 

[SuicideSquid]

How many kef blade or revel salon customers really want to 'match components' and want to use tube amps and stuff like that?
Are they still the majority or do most customers just get any amp or AVR for speakers in this price range?

Brands like B&O are making actives for a while now and they are quite popular; Speakers like Kef LS60 or Dynaudio Focus are also getting a lot of attention.
I would also prefer every speaker to be active but every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho

I think most people who are investing tens of thousands of dollars in speakers are also spending tens of thousands on boutique amplifiers. There are sensible people out there who might buy a very expensive speaker and amplify it with a $2,000 purifi Class-D and be comfortable knowing it's going to beat the pants of many options costing 10x as much, but they're definitely the minority. No one's buying KEF Blades and hooking them up to a Denon X3800h (though that would almost certainly sound perfectly good).

I'm not sure what you mean by "every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho". One of the advantages of active speakers is that the use of a dsp and active crossover can allow you to use less-expensive components and still achieve great results - you don't need as hefty an amplifier if you're bi-amping the woofer and tweeter directly after the signal's been crossed over, for example.

 

[juliangst]

The question is :
is a KEF system (speakers +DAC+amp) that costs $10K is as good as or better than Genelec 8361 that also cost $10K

If we are just talking about value to performance then yes imo. You can get R3 Meta+ MiniDSP+ Hypex NC252mp+ subs (or an AVR with Dirac Bass control for a more simple setup) for about half the price and have a system with deeper bass extention, lower distortion and also DSP features.

If we're talking about a 2 speaker system only the Genelec are still a valid choice because of their extention down to 30Hz. Even the R11 Meta towers can't do that (according to the spinorama, in a real room it might be different).
I would be happy with either option

 

[pablolie]

I'll just answer the original question: ".. why-do-passive-speakers-still-exist .."

And the answer is that every healthy market needs and breeds choice.

While I'd agree that active speakers can/should (but not always do) deliver on optimally matched interaction between amplifier and drivers, it definitely is not impossible to achieve identical results with well-matched separate parts. Chances are that if you take apart an active speaker you'll find a standard OEM amplifier in there that you can also find in an amplifier.

I have no doubt that the future is about active speakers, the big question is whether we have yet found the optimal feature balance between what an active speaker and what a DAC+Amp and streamer should do. I'd buy an LS60 in a second *if* it (a) came in red [yes that matters to me and that's my right as a buyer] and (b) it didn't waste so many resources on integrating streaming functionality and its APIs (application program interfaces). Working in technology, I will laugh at any company that tells me they will forever maintain and update APIs on any original platform. There is a 100% inevitable chance that software/firmware support *will* end. There is wired-in obsolescence every time you integrate too much functionality, as much as I'd love to just have one magic device that does everything forever.

 

[juliangst]

I'm not sure what you mean by "every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho"

I just mean that if you have a passive and an active version (LS50 Meta and Wireless II for example) the active version should not be worse than the passive version.
The actives shouldn't have a worse frequency response or have higher distortion than the passive version (with a powerful enough amp of course).

 

[pablolie]

I just mean that if you have a passive and an active version (LS50 Meta and Wireless II for example) the active version should not be worse than the passive version.
The actives shouldn't have a worse frequency response or have higher distortion than the passive version (with a powerful enough amp of course).

Why would they? The speaker parts are the exact same. And while by all accounts KEF has done as fantastic job matching the amplifying bits to drive the LS50 drivers very well, there is zero evidence in claiming that a separate amp cannot deliver the exact same high performance.

My reservation though -as stated above- is simply the fact they integrate a zillion other things - streaming app support etc etc. And that functionality *will* stop working in a few years inevitably. At least as far as streaming apps go. Spotify et al change their APIs all the time. And just like Win11 isn't supported on 5 year old Intel high end processors, the same thing will happen to any platform like that... KEF et al will shift their support to new platforms inevitably and issue an end-of-software-support for the older ones.

 

[juliangst]

there is zero evidence in claiming that a separate amp cannot deliver the exact same high performance.

Maybe the same performance but not better performance. I don't want an active speaker that will perform worse than it's passive counterpart. But I don't think that's the case with LS50 Wireless 2. They're on par if not better with a well driven pair of LS50 Meta which is a good thing.

My reservation though -as stated above- is simply the fact they integrate a zillion other things - streaming app support etc etc. And that functionality *will* stop working in a few years inevitably. At least as far as streaming apps go. Spotify et al change their APIs all the time. And just like Win11 isn't supported on 5 year old Intel high end processors, the same thing will happen to any platform like that... KEF et al will shift their support to new platforms inevitably and issue an end-of-software-support for the older ones.

That's also my concern with those smart active speakers. I don't want any streaming and possibly buggy software in them but people who buy those kind of speakers demand it.
I just want a good active design with AES and XLR inputs and maybe onboard DSP for room filters.

 

[Angsty]

I'll just answer the original question: ".. why-do-passive-speakers-still-exist .."

And the answer is that every healthy market needs and breeds choice.

While I'd agree that active speakers can/should (but not always do) deliver on optimally matched interaction between amplifier and drivers, it definitely is not impossible to achieve identical results with well-matched separate parts. Chances are that if you take apart an active speaker you'll find a standard OEM amplifier in there that you can also find in an amplifier.

I have no doubt that the future is about active speakers, the big question is whether we have yet found the optimal feature balance between what an active speaker and what a DAC+Amp and streamer should do. I'd buy an LS60 in a second *if* it (a) came in red [yes that matters to me and that's my right as a buyer] and (b) it didn't waste so many resources on integrating streaming functionality and its APIs (application program interfaces). Working in technology, I will laugh at any company that tells me they will forever maintain and update APIs on any original platform. There is a 100% inevitable chance that software/firmware support *will* end. There is wired-in obsolescence every time you integrate too much functionality, as much as I'd love to just have one magic device that does everything forever.

Yes, I’d buy a LS60 for a new, second home. It likely would have a maximum life of 15 years before obsolescence. My hope would be that KEF would sell some external “override module” to replace the internal software units, but that’s kind of a pipe dream.

My Thiel and Bryston gear is all over 20 years old and will likely go on for another 20 - even the DAC.

 

[Galliardist]

Bryston does this with their 'T Active' speakers, with large and medium floorstander, and standmount models. They have an external crossover box with DSP, and then use various Bryston amp combinations to achieve 6 channels (I think) of amplification. The set-up with the top floorstander can go over $20K.

No, this is not an example of a viable 'active floostander.' There's boxes and cables everywhere.

I think speakers with external active electronics are entirely viable. There’s no reason to have more than one external box for such a system, come to that. The multichannel version of tbat could be a little unwieldy.

Multiple boxes would allow for upgrades and make repairs, another standard gripe, easier.

Some kind of standards for connections and maybe replacement boards in external boxes for actives would help, but we have small companies (for the most part) doing these things, scattered across the world, all trying to be innovative: so different solutions and no reason to work together.

It’s also too early perhaps to restrain those innovatoons?

 

[Galliardist]

Yes, I’d buy a LS60 for a new, second home. It likely would have a maximum life of 15 years before obsolescence. My hope would be that KEF would sell some external “override module” to replace the internal software units, but that’s kind of a pipe

What “obsolescence” do you have in mind? And could it not be handled by an external converter if it did happen?

 

[pablolie]

What “obsolescence” do you have in mind? And could it not be handled by an external converter if it did happen?

I can't speak for the person you replied to, but since I share that view: mainly, wired-in obsolescence to support music streaming services a la Spotify etc. Their APIs will change over the years, your equipment will prolly support them for 5-8 years, tops. And sure, then you can get a new additional box to support those changes and just use the RCA/XLR connection to your now feature-less speakers... which begs the question... why did you pay for those features to begin with? Wouldn't that product development $ be better spent on better components and performance for the active speaker -without additional functionality- you end up with inevitably?

This is in no way a new dynamic in tech devices.

 

[Galliardist]

I can't speak for the person you replied to, but since I share that view: mainly, wired-in obsolescence to support music streaming services a la Spotify etc. Their APIs will change over the years, your equipment will prolly support them for 5-8 years, tops. And sure, then you can get a new additional box to support those changes and just use the RCA/XLR connection to your now feature-less speakers... which begs the question... why did you pay for those features to begin with? Wouldn't that product development $ be better spent on better components and performance for the active speaker -without additional functionality- you end up with inevitably?

This is in no way a new dynamic in tech devices.

Why should the later box not have a digital connection to the speakers?

 

[JiiPee]

I can't speak for the person you replied to, but since I share that view: mainly, wired-in obsolescence to support music streaming services a la Spotify etc. Their APIs will change over the years, your equipment will prolly support them for 5-8 years, tops. And sure, then you can get a new additional box to support those changes and just use the RCA/XLR connection to your now feature-less speakers... which begs the question... why did you pay for those features to begin with? Wouldn't that product development $ be better spent on better components and performance for the active speaker -without additional functionality- you end up with inevitably?

This is in no way a new dynamic in tech devices.

In most active speakers the firmware can be updated quite easily by the end user. So a software API-change does not necessarily render the speakers obsolete.

 

[Newman]

There of course are exceptions to this but my general impression is that passives still are viable options. The best of both worlds would be an active speaker with external amplifications and crossover. This would allow for bigger higher power amps and you don't need a power outlet next to each speaker

JBL M2, 708i, 705i

 

[Newman]

Again, one of like 5 I can think of.

You list your 5, then we will add to it.

 

[Newman]

I would also prefer every speaker to be active but every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho

Why so black and white? It makes no sense.

Everything has pros and cons. When the pros outweigh the cons, it's superior.

 

[Newman]

That can be just a case, you can find excellent spinoramas of active Kii at Erin's corner.
But still I have not received any indication of a good performing sub-3K€ pair of active floorstanders from the "activists"

Don't forget to add the cost of a good power amp for the sub-3K€ pair of passives, to be fair. So the actives budget becomes 4-5K€?

 

[dfuller]

You list your 5, then we will add to it.

There are what, two Dynaudios in the Focus line, the Elac Navis... I guess you could count the B&O stuff? Nothing else comes to mind immediately.