• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why Biquads?

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,246
Likes
9,378
By default MiniDSP products accept biquad filters generated by REW. Other than the convenience of being able to import these values into a MiniDSP product, what is the technical advantage of a biquad over a regular PEQ IIR filter?
 

3ll3d00d

Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
212
Likes
176
A regular filter is implemented as 1 or more biquads, it's just a user friendly/convenient way to specify a filter. Allowing you to input the biquads coefficients directly is useful because you can then specify whatever filter you like (that can be implemented using biquads)
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,908
Likes
16,733
Location
Monument, CO
A biquad is an IIR implementation so I do not know how it differs from "regular PEQ IIR" filters. Biquads are easy to implement (in several forms) and have fairly simple terms (since it's a biquadratic equation) making it easy to port among different DSP systems. Cascaded biquads are often used for higher-order filters, mimicking old-school analog filter designs.

To answer your question I'd need to know what you are calling a "regular PEQ IIR filter" topology.

The bigger question might be why use IIR instead of FIR filters or vice versa, but it's been a long time since my filter days. Simplistically, IIR filters tend to be low-order but fast (minimal latency) and low in complexity (simpler, cheaper, lower in power to implement). They are not generally constant phase/group delay so can distort pulses, not usually a big deal for audio. They usually roll off faster for given filter order compared to FIR filters, but are not guaranteed to be stable so higher orders are more challenging. FIR filters are slower (higher latency), complicated, and consume more power, but their many taps means very high order can be achieved (fast roll-off), generally have linear phase and thus constant group delay so better pulse integrity (not always a big deal for audio), and are always stable. Linear phase (constant group delay) and stability, along with copious computational power available, makes FIR filters the choice for many audio applications. But I have often seen cases where digital crossovers are IIR and room correction filters are FIR in the same processor. And of course various DACs may allow you to choose one or the other or a combination.

Things like the miniDSP units, using smaller DSP chips, can handle more IIR filters than the many more taps (multipliers) needed for FIR filters. I do not know about miniDSP specifically, but it was not uncommon in my work to add an all-pass filter after IIR stages to correct the phase when needed. The all-pass filters could get tricky, natch...
 

gnarly

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
1,037
Likes
1,471
+1 to both 3ll3d00d's and DonH56's posts,

In the case of why does miniDSP do biquads? I think it is rooted in being able to apply a Linkwitz transform via their spreadsheet implementation, to sealed subwoofers.
 

3ll3d00d

Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
212
Likes
176
Given the wording of the OP, I assumed "regular peq iir" referred to "things that can be entered via the minidsp gui" which are basically the usual suspects (peaking, shelf, low/high pass of various types).
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,908
Likes
16,733
Location
Monument, CO
Given the wording of the OP, I assumed "regular peq iir" referred to "things that can be entered via the minidsp gui" which are basically the usual suspects (peaking, shelf, low/high pass of various types).
I don't have a miniDSP. Are those filters also implemented with biquads?
 

gnarly

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
1,037
Likes
1,471
When I first got into miniDSP almost 10 years ago, their product line seemed to be much about DIY speaker processing, than room correction and streaming integration etc.
(Dirac sure changed that !)
So their products had a good complement of standard IIR filters for setting in "regular mode", and the ability to generate IIR bi-quads in "advanced mode".
Plus, certain models had the highest FIR tap count, at a reasonable price that i could find.
I ended up with four OpenDRC's that gave me a total of 8 channels x 6144 taps @48 kHz..
After tuning a few multi-ways with FIR, i learned to say no to IIR in general, and a big hell-no to bi-quads !!
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,908
Likes
16,733
Location
Monument, CO
Yes. Some products also support fir filters.
Thanks, I assumed so, but did not know (and too lazy to look it up). I knew some boards/products had FIR capability but I have not looked at them in a while. Considered getting one to integrate my subs with MSO but so far just letting my processor do it.
 
OP
Ron Texas

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,246
Likes
9,378
@DonH56 what I mean by a regular PEQ is I enter frequency, amplitude and Q in human readable terms. The biquad is entered as 4 coefficients which do not give an ordinary human reader a clue as to what they are doing. When using REW set for MiniDSP this this the file output and may be directly imported into the MiniDSP software. The MiniDSP console will provide a graphic display of what the filters are doing. It works like a charm. What I'm wondering is if there is any technical difference between the two methods.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,924
Likes
6,058
There must be some sort of precision since regular PEQ won’t work for low frequencies and you need a “SubEQ” which uses up an extra slot of processing.
 

3ll3d00d

Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
212
Likes
176
@DonH56 what I mean by a regular PEQ is I enter frequency, amplitude and Q in human readable terms. The biquad is entered as 4 coefficients which do not give an ordinary human reader a clue as to what they are doing. When using REW set for MiniDSP this this the file output and may be directly imported into the MiniDSP software. The MiniDSP console will provide a graphic display of what the filters are doing. It works like a charm. What I'm wondering is if there is any technical difference between the two methods.
it is what I was referring to, there's no difference at all. You can calculate them offline, load them as biquad coefficients and compare the responses yourself if you want to verify it.

There must be some sort of precision since regular PEQ won’t work for low frequencies and you need a “SubEQ” which uses up an extra slot of processing.
precision down to 10Hz or so is fine on the floating point units, the old fixed point ones have significant issues as you get below 16Hz or so.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,908
Likes
16,733
Location
Monument, CO
@DonH56 what I mean by a regular PEQ is I enter frequency, amplitude and Q in human readable terms. The biquad is entered as 4 coefficients which do not give an ordinary human reader a clue as to what they are doing. When using REW set for MiniDSP this this the file output and may be directly imported into the MiniDSP software. The MiniDSP console will provide a graphic display of what the filters are doing. It works like a charm. What I'm wondering is if there is any technical difference between the two methods.
Well, I do not know how exactly miniDSP implements the filters, but should not be any underlying technical difference if they are both biquad structures. My guess is they are the same filters with two ways to input the coefficients: direct biquadratic terms, more useful for computers to skip some steps, or human-readable parameters their software converts to biquadratic terms. A lot of DSP filters (probably most IIR filters) use biquads so having those coefficients makes them readily transferable among processors.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,924
Likes
6,058
precision down to 10Hz or so is fine on the floating point units, the old fixed point ones have significant issues as you get below 16Hz or so.


This is the product I was mentioning which does, indeed, have a fixed point processor
 
Top Bottom