Which flagship headphone has fantastic soundstage/imaging und bass?

[Goldhamster916]

Hi all,

I am looking for a flagship headphone (up to 5k) with a wide convincing soundstage in with and depth along with precise imaging within that soundstage.
I will use it mainly for movie watching and gaming.
Second most important Charakteristik would be to have an (within headphones limits) as much subwoofer‘esque bass as possible. It should have authority/physicality to it, slam good and go all the way to 20hz in a convincing manner.

Third most important would be comfort

Fourth and least important would be detail retrieval ability.

Right now my favorites are the hifiman 1000se and the zmf atrium. Does anyone have experience with those and can tell how well they fit my criteria compared to each other?

Are there any other headphones that would excel in those areas? (They don’t have to be perfect in all of them)

My budget is up to 5k.

Thanks a lot for your time!

 

[DVDdoug]

Very few people get a realistic soundstage illusion with headphones. Headphone Soundstage Survey

Comfort is a very personal thing.

There is almost no correlation between headphone price and sound quality (you can sort the reviews here by price or "recommended"). It's unlikely that your favorite headphone would cost $5000 (if you didn't know the brand or price).

And there is a link to a video by Dan Clark (headphone manufacturer) somewhere on the forum and he mentions that distortion is often described as "detail"!!!

 

[Goldhamster916]

I tried some Arya’s a while ago and I can definitely perceive soundstage with (to the sides) but there was not much depth (front to back). I feel like most headphones lack in depth but many sources say both of these have outstanding depth (especially the atrium with a good tube amp).

 

[kemmler3D]

If you want soundstage from headphones, my advice is:

1. Go to an audio show and listen to every headphone available to demo. If you are lucky, one of them will match your particular ear shape and give you good soundstage naturally.
2. Get any headphone with good bass extension and low distortion, then EQ and use crossfeed. (this is what I did.)

I can tell you Audeze LCD-XC has amazing bass and very low distortion so it takes EQ easily. After adding some crossfeed, the soundstage becomes perhaps not wide beyond my head, but subjectively deeper and more continuous, like L| | | | | C | | | | |R instead of L|| ___ ||C|| ___ ||R without it.

 

[Dunring]

This is a contradiction you mention. Headphones like the Sennheiser HD800s have a wide and deep soundstage effect because of the open back design. Headphones like the Beyerdynamic DT770 250 ohm for example, extend the bass down and since they're closed back you get great deep bass in music that has it. Trying for subwoofer like bass and huge sound stage effect just contradict each other.

 

[Goldhamster916]

Well then I at least want one which gets as far as possible in both departments. It doesent have to be perfect in all departments. I would be willing to give up some bass ability for example if all the other criteria are met.

The hd800s soundstage is very wide all the time. I rather prefer one which can switch between wide and more intimate depending on the input and is good at layering sounds rather then having them very far away all the time.

Crossfeed is an interesting suggestion, I will try it out! Also good to know to look at bass distortion to see how well eq‘able the bass is. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The 2021 Audeze version of the LCD-X with Dekoni Sheepskin pads and Oratory 1990's tuning should be everything you're looking for.

 

[majingotan]

Trying for subwoofer like bass and huge sound stage effect just contradict each other.

Have you tried the DCA Expanse and Stealth? Both pull off these big bass and soundstage effect with ease

 

[Goldhamster916]

I appreciate the suggestions. The lcd x seem very good for bass and , although maybe not the absolute best in the soundstage/imgaing department. Since I sometimes game for many hours I fear they would be to heavy for that.

I haven’t heard much good about the DCA expanse but will check it out again along with the stealth but I will check them out again. Has anyone here experience with the atrium and can tell how it relates to my preferences?

I appreciate your time!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

If you want to watch movies over headphones, buy the Audeze or HD 800's and get a Smyth A16 Realizer, then get a measurement of a great speaker system, and experience Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D over headphones. Better to spend $1000 on the phones and $4000 for the Realizer than buy a $5000 set of headphones. And, as a Realizer owner who has a 24 channel measurement of Dutch & Dutch 8C's made in a recording studio, I can tell you it's literally light years better than just buying a $5000 set of headphones and listening to a two channel feed of a movie. Absolutely no question about it.

 

[Goldhamster916]

I wish I could demo the smyth realizer somehow. It looks to offer exactly what I am looking for. Problem is it costs 6k here in Germany :/. That’s a lot of money for something that’s so hard to judge if you haven’t heard it yourself and is not measureable, as much as I trust your judgment!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I wish I could demo the smyth realizer somehow. It looks to offer exactly what I am looking for. Problem is it costs 6k here in Germany :/. That’s a lot of money for something that’s so hard to judge if you haven’t heard it yourself and is not measureable, as much as I trust your judgment!

It is a big commitment, but if you want to hear movies in multichannel, and not have the sound inside your head, it's unique. I use it everyday, and when I watch movies, I hear a sound field as wide as my room, and I hear it in front of me, to the side, behind, and above in front, side and behind, as well as movie level bass. If you can find a way to demo it, you absolutely want to. There is a shop in Paris, run by Gilles Gerin called "Club Realiser". The information can be found on Head Fi when the Realizer has its own dedicated thread. Anyway, that shop has Realizer's to demo, and will if you ask them nice, possibly make a replica measurement of the in shop speakers. You can then do quick A-B's of the Realizer emulation and the actual speakers playing in the room, and you will find the two are nearly if not completely indistinguishable. There's nothing else like it.

Club Realiser, 1 year access

Suscribing to the Club Realiser gives you access to a selection of exclusive and very high quality 5.1 to 9.1.6 rooms and auditoriums, captured with a SMYTH Realiser A8 or Realiser A16. These room files (aka PRIR) are to be downloaded and transferred to your SMYTH Realiser A16 via a microSD card...

av-in.com

 

[johny_2000]

And there is a link to a video by Dan Clark (headphone manufacturer) somewhere on the forum and he mentions that distortion is often described as "detail"!!!

This is why the tube amplifier club still exists.

 

[johny_2000]

Get any headphone with good bass extension and low distortion, then EQ and use crossfeed. (this is what I did.)

This is practically the only way. So, which one did you settle on?

 

[johny_2000]

This is a contradiction you mention. Headphones like the Sennheiser HD800s have a wide and deep soundstage effect because of the open back design. Headphones like the Beyerdynamic DT770 250 ohm for example, extend the bass down and since they're closed back you get great deep bass in music that has it. Trying for subwoofer like bass and huge sound stage effect just contradict each other.

I understand what topic starter is looking for in the headphones. I'm doing the same thing and still can't find a replacement for my HD650 which doesn't have sub bass.

 

[Goldhamster916]

Right now I am rather leaning towards the HE1000SE because of its imaging capabilities along with the wide soundstage and detail retrieval abilities and then boost the subbass.

Only thing holding me back is that some people claim the atrium has even more soundstage depth when driven of a good fitting tube amp. It isn’t quite as good in imaging and detail though.

I might get the he1000se first and then maybe find a way to try the atrium.

 

[johny_2000]

HE1000SE

For me, this is too high price to pay for a dubious reputation about their quality. The company needs to run a demo / rental program to convince me.

 

[hex168]

There are intermediate solutions less effective but cheaper than than the Realizer but better than simple crossfeed. Reputedly, have not heard them. The top BACCH solution for headphones might be in the same league; haven't heard it either and can't find it on their website.
Possibly helpful threads:

Crossfeed for headphones

I've been experimenting lately with crossfeed with my headphones. The main issue I'm trying to resolve is avoiding sounds that are hard panned to one side. In headphones it sounds unnatural and irritating because it's isolated to only one ear. Of course, in speakers there is some leakage to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am looking for headphones with wide soundstage

I am looking for headphones with wide soundstage da 200 300 euro to connect to GC7 to take better advantage of virtual suroound sound i headphones for watching movies and listening to music

www.audiosciencereview.com

Has anyone tried using this crossfeed setup?

I've been using this excellent set of equalization/convolution files given here: https://github.com/ShanonPearce/ASH-Listening-Set for the past few days and it's been the best headphone experience bar none across the multiple sets that I own. For my PC setup it's already as simple as it gets...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Headphone Listening with Acustica Audio's Sienna

I thought it good to share, cos it has absolutely impressed me a whole lot. Acustica Audio is a pioneer in a special kind of convolution based emulation of analog audio processing devices, such as microphone preamps, equalisers, compressors and reverbs. Been around for about a decade IIRC. Not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

ValhallaDSP Room VST plugin settings to try frontal externalization

Hi all. I spent really long time trying to achieve frontal localization sound in cans with all of that stuff - HRTF, Realphones, free BRIRs. But finally tried Valhalla Room reverb yesterday and found it sound naturally (in comparison with studio monitors calibrated with DIRAC right in front of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

uBACCH now available for Windows

Following the discussion in this thread I followed the link to uBACCH and found that it is now available for Windows as a VST3 for USD$399 - link. A trial version was available, so I downloaded it to take a look. Here is a mini-review with some comments and criticism. For those who don't know...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Mr Swing King]

Looking for soundstage in headphones is like fishing for sharks in the Sahara or similarly trying to measure biceps on bunnyrabbits.

What can give a larger sense of scale pertaining to headphone listening, in my opinion anyway, is the size of the cups. Also jives fairly well with headphones supposedly heralded for their large soundstages; HD800, K7XX series, eggshaped Hifimans and so forth. All come with very large cups.
It doesn’t really change the soundstage other than perhaps giving the sensation of something more ‘grandiose’ because of those enormous cups.
The previous rec regarding the Smyth Realiser though is the only gear I’ve ever tried that successfully portrays a real speaker experience and gives you a realistic soundstage.

Out of the two headphones you’ve mentioned, I’d go for the Hifiman - most especially if you’re going to try the Smyth or a similar thing. Low distortion is a great starting point if you’re going to season the listening experience via EQ/DSP.

 

[Goldhamster916]

There are intermediate solutions less effective but cheaper than than the Realizer but better than simple crossfeed. Reputedly, have not heard them. The top BACCH solution for headphones might be in the same league; haven't heard it either and can't find it on their website.
Possibly helpful threads:

Crossfeed for headphones

I've been experimenting lately with crossfeed with my headphones. The main issue I'm trying to resolve is avoiding sounds that are hard panned to one side. In headphones it sounds unnatural and irritating because it's isolated to only one ear. Of course, in speakers there is some leakage to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am looking for headphones with wide soundstage

I am looking for headphones with wide soundstage da 200 300 euro to connect to GC7 to take better advantage of virtual suroound sound i headphones for watching movies and listening to music

www.audiosciencereview.com

Has anyone tried using this crossfeed setup?

I've been using this excellent set of equalization/convolution files given here: https://github.com/ShanonPearce/ASH-Listening-Set for the past few days and it's been the best headphone experience bar none across the multiple sets that I own. For my PC setup it's already as simple as it gets...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Headphone Listening with Acustica Audio's Sienna

I thought it good to share, cos it has absolutely impressed me a whole lot. Acustica Audio is a pioneer in a special kind of convolution based emulation of analog audio processing devices, such as microphone preamps, equalisers, compressors and reverbs. Been around for about a decade IIRC. Not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

ValhallaDSP Room VST plugin settings to try frontal externalization

Hi all. I spent really long time trying to achieve frontal localization sound in cans with all of that stuff - HRTF, Realphones, free BRIRs. But finally tried Valhalla Room reverb yesterday and found it sound naturally (in comparison with studio monitors calibrated with DIRAC right in front of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

uBACCH now available for Windows

Following the discussion in this thread I followed the link to uBACCH and found that it is now available for Windows as a VST3 for USD$399 - link. A trial version was available, so I downloaded it to take a look. Here is a mini-review with some comments and criticism. For those who don't know...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks a lot for recommending those, I appreciate it!

Thanks all for your insight, I will try to find a way to compare both.