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Crossfeed for headphones

Fluffy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
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Sep 14, 2019
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I've been experimenting lately with crossfeed with my headphones. The main issue I'm trying to resolve is avoiding sounds that are hard panned to one side. In headphones it sounds unnatural and irritating because it's isolated to only one ear. Of course, in speakers there is some leakage to the other ear so it's much more tolerable.

What I have to work with is EqualizerAPO. I don't have the Peace interface, and while I've heard it contains some sort of crossfeed option, I would like to have full control on what the crossfeed filter actually does, so I'm trying to make one manually using the available commands.

The first attempt was a simple copy between channels. For example, R channel having 90% of R audio and 10% of L audio, and vice versa. I played around with the ratios, and while it did manage to eliminate hard panned sounds, it sounded kind of unnatural and hurt the soundstage width too much.

So I tried to delve into more complex crossfeed arrangements. I found a VST plugin that I could apply in EQ APO named "BS2BR", that had 4 levels of crossfeed. I generally understand it's function and how it differ from a simple copy between channels – it copies one cannel's information to the other one while applying a high-shelf filter, thus resulting in more crossfeed in the lower frequencies and less in the higher ones. I suppose this gives a more realistic sound, because it imitates how low frequencies are less directional than high ones. The plugin interface gives basic information on the different parameters, but I don't quite understand what those parameters mean. For example:

plugin.png


A higher crossfeed level gives more separation. Here it's at 9.5 db, and in other configurations it's as low as 4.5. the cutoff frequency here is 650 hz, while in the narrower option it's at 700 hz. I vaguely understand how these affect the narrowness of the perceived soundstage, but I would be glad if someone with real knowledge could tell me what these parameters actually mean. Is the cutoff frequency when the high shelf filter begins? Is it it's center frequency? What is its slope? And what does the crossfeed level mean? It's a 9.5 db boost/cut of what exactly?

Anyway, I did try to replicate that plugin's effect using the built in commands and filters in the interface. After some fiddling around, I managed to do that ,and validated it with loopback recording in Audacity using a chirp, to confirm that I achieved the same effect as the plugin. I played around with parameters until I achieved a filter that doesn't affect the frequency response (unlike what this plugin does, where all configurations result in elevated lower end), and was unnoticeable enough to not affect the soundstage in regular music, while still accomplishing the goal of eliminating hard panned sounds. This is the chain of commands that achieved it:

Copy: L2=L R2=R

Channel: L2 R2

Filter: ON HSC 6 dB Fc 1000 Hz Gain -15 dB

Copy: L=0dB*L+-16.0dB*R2 R=0dB*R+-16.0dB*L2

Channel: L R

Filter: ON LSC 6 dB Fc 400 Hz Gain -1 dB
 
Wow, you managed to make crossfeed work in EqualizerAPO? Awesome.

That's come a long way since I looked at it last.
 
I experimented with crossfeed (analog only) and with many variables.
Played with it for a long time to find my personal optimal 'version'.

The problem I encountered was there seemed to be no setting that worked really well with all recordings.
I ended up with a very mild crossfeed which worked reasonably well with most recordings.

Later I noticed I had listened to music without any crossfeed (had switched it off in the back and did not know/remember).
When I switched it on again I did not like it as much and got used to the wider sound and preferred that for headphones.
So... for me it was a fun experiment that gave some improvements sometimes with some music but after 'accepting' stereo through headphones preferred the sound without any crossfeed.
The same won't be true for others who may like it even wider or prefer using crossfeed (@maverickronin is a big crossfeed fan).
I don't mind the sharp pinpointed stereo width in my head. Headphones are not speakers. They are a different way to enjoy sound.

Never played with realisers and digital crap. I 'auditioned' the OOYH software (which some really like) but found it sounding very weird.
 
@solderdude Don't get me wrong, I like the wide stereo effect of headphones (in most music). The only thing that bothers me is where the music stops and there is an instrument (guitar most of the times) that plays in just one ear. That makes me very uncomfortable. My goal is to find a configuration that sounds as close as possible to how it sounds without crossfeed, while making those moments of "just right/left ear" be a bit more spread out.

There are some types of music that does benefit from heavy amounts of crossfeed. Beatles albums, for example, are stereo mixed in a way that hard pans different instruments to different ears, and in headphones it doesn't sound right. For that I use the highest level of crossfeed the plugin offers. Also, in some jazz albums where one or more instruments are hard panned.

@maverickronin Took some hard thinking, but eventually I figured it out. The parameters here (filters and amount of copying between channels) are just a result of fiddling around, nothing too scientific. My goal was to have It be very mild, and not affect the FR at all.
 
From my brief play with the settings in Roon (similar presets to the ones in @Fluffy set up) I didnt find it added much at all but seemed to muddy (or maybe just lower volume) compared to without. So I've disabled.

But then again I have never had an issue with hard pans anyway.
 
The same won't be true for others who may like it even wider or prefer using crossfeed (@maverickronin is a big crossfeed fan).

From my brief play with the settings in Roon (similar presets to the ones in @Fluffy set up) I didnt find it added much at all

I don't know how you guys do it. I flat out get headaches from any decent full size headphone without crossfeed. I find IEMs usable, but not optimal without it.

I don't mind the sharp pinpointed stereo width in my head.

but seemed to muddy (or maybe just lower volume) compared to without.

I wonder why people perceive this so differently?

In general, I do not hear crossfeed to reduce pinpoint imaging or muddy anything up. It usually only slightly reduces the stereo width while moving the soundstage forward.

IME results vary from headphone to headphone, but EQing it to to diffuse field almost always improves the effect of crossfeed. Headphones which already include a large amount of your pinna transfer function such as the HD800 also get the most improvement in forward projection so that things really sound like they are coming from in front of you.
 
IMO electrical 'mixing' yields a different effect as 'acoustical mixing' and is why I think crossfeed isn't doing what I hoped it would be doing.

It did work 'best' with an EQ'ed HD800 though. It 'relaxed' the sound a bit. Not enough to keep it in the loop.
Must a very personal thing (headphone listening usually is)
Never got an 'in front of me' sensation either. Also not with binaural. Only 'the barber' is 3D for me.
Never get headaches either unless there is a huge clamping force.
I can get nauseous when the bass is bloated.
 
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@solderdude Don't get me wrong, I like the wide stereo effect of headphones (in most music). The only thing that bothers me is where the music stops and there is an instrument (guitar most of the times) that plays in just one ear. That makes me very uncomfortable. ...
Same here. My headphone amps have Jan Meier's crossfeed, but I use it only rarely, on material that has sounds hard-panned L or R. In my collection this is typically old jazz recordings. Some of Pierre Sprey's Mapleshade recordings are like this too. They're not hard panned, but he uses PZM boundary mics attached to a triangular or wedge shaped box. With the wedge pointed toward the music, you get v-e-r-y w-i-d-e stereo separation.
Meier's name appears in your screenshot above, and I've seen his crossfeed, or copies of it, in various software. It is among the best crossfeed filters I've heard, does a subtle job just taking the edge off the hard pan, while minimizing side effects in the rest of the music. Much better than the crossfeed in the old Headroom amps, which was more of a sledgehammer.
 
I don't know how you guys do it. I flat out get headaches from any decent full size headphone without crossfeed. I find IEMs usable, but not optimal without it.





I wonder why people perceive this so differently?

In general, I do not hear crossfeed to reduce pinpoint imaging or muddy anything up. It usually only slightly reduces the stereo width while moving the soundstage forward.

IME results vary from headphone to headphone, but EQing it to to diffuse field almost always improves the effect of crossfeed. Headphones which already include a large amount of your pinna transfer function such as the HD800 also get the most improvement in forward projection so that things really sound like they are coming from in front of you.
HA! We can science everything before and up to the point the sound waves come out of the transducer (and even after with pads, room EQ etc) but it still all comes down to subjective perception.

Ive been listening to 'phones and speakers jointly for as long as I've had a stereo and I've never once thought one was superior to the other. Just different, as @solderdude says. That said , I also said I enjoyed the HD800 without EQ until very recently. I've now gone to the dark side and fiddled I dont think I will go back.

Oh, and since we got a damned feline, I've had to go to 'phones only. Dont really miss the speakers as I could never really let them rip.
 
I remember when a girl I liked and I placed speakers on the floor on either side of us and cranking portions of ELP Brain Salad Surgery simply to get the full effect of hard side-to-side panning. Of course we were 15 at the time and stoned out of our gourds. Sweet memories... I wonder what ever happened to Dana?

Martin
 
Same here. My headphone amps have Jan Meier's crossfeed, but I use it only rarely, on material that has sounds hard-panned L or R. In my collection this is typically old jazz recordings. Some of Pierre Sprey's Mapleshade recordings are like this too. They're not hard panned, but he uses PZM boundary mics attached to a triangular or wedge shaped box. With the wedge pointed toward the music, you get v-e-r-y w-i-d-e stereo separation.
Meier's name appears in your screenshot above, and I've seen his crossfeed, or copies of it, in various software. It is among the best crossfeed filters I've heard, does a subtle job just taking the edge off the hard pan, while minimizing side effects in the rest of the music. Much better than the crossfeed in the old Headroom amps, which was more of a sledgehammer.
I hoped someone would notice that. Yes, that plugin claims to emulate Jan Meier's crossfeed (among other options). I actually installed a different plugin that is just Meier's crossfeed and compared between that one and that specific configuration that I showed here, and they are merely identical. So I conclude that is indeed the intention here. I don't really know though what makes his crossfeed design better than others (I tried to read some articles and it got too complex for me).

What I did notice is that even though it's very subtle, it was still too strong for my taste. Its narrowing of the stage is too pronounced, and I wanted something even more subtle. That's why I made a custom configuration. Another consideration was that I wanted more narrowing in the higher frequencies in relation to the lower ones, to bring in to the center hard panned cymbals. Basically the configuration I made is a bit closer to a flat-response copying between channels than Meier's one. I suppose it's probably less realistic because of that, but I don't really mind as long as it works for my needs.
 
I suppose it's probably less realistic because of that, but I don't really mind as long as it works for my needs.

Listening to stereo mixes on headphones is already weird enough, so go with whatever works for you.
 
Update – I made some upgrades. Using 3 of the configurations from the plugin (there is a fourth one that’s pretty much identical to another one so I ignored it) and my custom configuration, I made four presets of crossfeed with varying level of strength. The best part is that I added shelf filters to each configuration to flatten out the frequency response and volume changes, so now when I switch between the presets, the only thing that changes is the perceived stereo width. Along with an off state, I get 5 levels of crossfeed to choose from.

I also discovered that different headphones appear to do better with different levels of crossfeed. My Focal Clear are best with the level 1 (just a touch), while the Audeze LCD2C are suddenly improved by applying level 2 or 3 (depending on the material).
 
Update – I made some upgrades. ... now when I switch between the presets, the only thing that changes is the perceived stereo width. Along with an off state, I get 5 levels of crossfeed to choose from. ...
I find this interesting because my Corda Soul has 5 levels of crossfeed implemented in DSP, and it is more transparent than the analog version of crossfeed Meier built into his other amps. The analog versions have a change in tonality or voicing, however slight. But the Soul's DSP implementation is exactly as you described - I find it perceptually transparent except that it changes the stereo width. With my Audeze LCD2F, level 2 is just enough to take the edge off hard panned stereo. Level 5 is almost like mono.
 
I find this interesting because my Corda Soul has 5 levels of crossfeed implemented in DSP, and it is more transparent than the analog version of crossfeed Meier built into his other amps. The analog versions have a change in tonality or voicing, however slight. But the Soul's DSP implementation is exactly as you described - I find it perceptually transparent except that it changes the stereo width. With my Audeze LCD2F, level 2 is just enough to take the edge off hard panned stereo. Level 5 is almost like mono.
Well, there are probably similarities in at least one of these presets. But the stronger level here is not even close to mono. I like the option of doing all of this in my PC because it gives me control over the exact parameters. In built-in options in devices like the Corda Soul you don't really know what you are getting unless it's specified in the manual or you bother to measure it. Though manufacturers have an incentive to not tell you exactly what they did, so other people can't copy it.

The different levels of crossfeed in this plugin are very close to transparent (if I would only assess this audibly I might not notice a difference), but are in fact not. The visual frequency response analysis in EQ APO shows exactly what effect they have on FR. It's subtle, around 1-2 db slope across the whole spectrum. But with an added filter, I got that to be as flat as 0.2 db across the spectrum.

By the way, the option to add advanced crossfeed is one of the reasons I considered getting the RME ADI-2 DAC. But seeing that almost all of its DSP capability can be emulated "in the box" using a free software like EQ APO, this really brings to question what's the point of doing that externally. Plus, the ADI-2 is limited in how much DSP it can handle, while my PC is only limited by its own system resources -which are a lot in my case.
 
HA! We can science everything before and up to the point the sound waves come out of the transducer (and even after with pads, room EQ etc) but it still all comes down to subjective perception.

I have a couple different armchair theories on why that might be.

One, which relates more to HRTF DSPs than simple crossfeed, is that that the algorithms assume standard or average shapes and sizes for a person's head and ears. If you're too far outside the norm then things may sound anywhere from slightly off to horribly wrong.

Second is susceptibility to sensory illusion. I'm not sure if other people who use crossfeed heavily also have this same experience, but by concentrating I can "snap" my perception back and forth between hearing the sound coming directly from the headphones near my ears and hearing the sound coming from somewhere forward of the headphones just the way an optical illusion can snap back and between two different images.

Nou3NEH.jpg


By the way, the option to add advanced crossfeed is one of the reasons I considered getting the RME ADI-2 DAC. But seeing that almost all of its DSP capability can be emulated "in the box" using a free software like EQ APO, this really brings to question what's the point of doing that externally.

Yeah that's very cool. I may not have bought my ADI-2 DAC if I knew you could make crossfeed filters in EQ APO. I do occasionally use it with other sources besides my PC so at least there's that.
 
If anyone's interested, I attached the measurements I did for the five crossfeed states (including off, and 1-4). The method was generating a logarithmic chirp of 20hz-20khz, hard panning it to the right, and loopback recording with each crossfeed active. It's easy to see (and hear) what is the exact effect of each filter across the spectrum. For example, the strongest one (level 4) have a mere 5 db difference between L and R at 20 hz, and slowly expands this difference until it reaches about 32 db at 20khz. Level 2 starts at 10 db of difference, and falls of quicker to reach 38 db difference at 20khz. My custom filter have a much lower crossfeed at 20 hz, at about 16 db difference, but it falls off slower to reach 31 db difference at 20khz. I did this so hard panned cymbals are a bit more centered, while the overall stage width is not narrowed considerably.
Here's the link: https://we.tl/t-g9KQ3yAQ79

This endeavor made me also wonder about the necessity of lower crosstalk. Basically, what these filters are doing is adding the equivalent of huge amounts of crosstalk - although more sophisticated and intentional. The proponents of balanced headphone connectors usually speak highly of how the lower crosstalk between channels widens the soundstage. If the difference is between -30 db and -60 db of crosstalk, that does sounds reasonable. But realistically the initial crosstalk is much lower than even -80 db, so the benefits to the soundstage are questionable. And even if they exist – creating more separation between the stereo channels is only widening the stage artificially. Music that is mixed with speakers is not really intended to be listened to in such a way that each channel is completely isolated to one ear. The widening effect is artificial and can only decrease the realism. In other words, those who claim that lower crosstalk in headphones gives you more realistic soundstage are basically wrong.
 
Challenge for you all- pro or anti crossfeed. Find the track "Let it Flow" by Spiritualized (on pure phase album)- There is a sound that is panned in a 360 loop around your head (or at least I perceive that and believe that is the intention). I get it without crossfeed enabled. See what you think.
 
I use Case's Meier Crossfeed dll plugin for foobar2000. Very happy with it. Setting is usually between 5 and 12 only.

Crossfeed
Used to reduce channel separation in early stereo recordings, or to make music played through headphones sound more natural, as though listening to a pair of speakers. Crossfeed can help reduce fatigue for headphone listeners as well.



9928004.jpg


Case's Meier Crossfeed for Foobar: An excellent simulation of Meier Audio's natural crossfeed filter. As the name suggests this crossfeed is very natural, is simple in its operation, and does not result in anemic bass.
Explanation of original implementation by Meier: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm
Plugin Download - http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_meiercf
Plugin Discussion - https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108412.0.html
VST Version Go to Post #32, thanks to Ironmine for the tip:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108412.msg923812.html#msg923812
 
These pictures demonstrates the difference between speakers and headphone nicely.

Room.jpg


Headphone.jpg


The "problem" indeed is that stereo on a headphone becomes STEREO.
The soundstage is to wide, it is to detailed, to bright, etc, etc.

Tried couple of crossfeeds (Toneboosters , Mathaudio) but somehow never found a satisfying solution.

Listening to headphones for 2 decades now, I simply got used to it.
Now I have the reverse problem, if I listen to my speakers the soundstage is to narrow, it is lacking detail, it sound a bit dull, etc. etc.
 
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