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I am looking for headphones with wide soundstage
- Thread starter musica
- Start date
Something from the Sennheiser S5xx or S6xx range should be good for you.
Also, to get wide soundstage in headphones, you should do 2-3 other things.
First, EQ the headphones to get a more neutral frequency response. This helps soundstage by allowing all spatial cues to come through with proper levels.
Next, if you have access to a headphone measuring setup (e.g. MiniDSP EARS) then you can measure the left and right ears of your headphones and create a one-channel EQ that matches the left and right channels better. This improves soundstage by eliminating errors between left and right ears.
Last, try crossfeed. With speakers, your left ear hears some of the right speaker, and vice-versa. With headphones, this doesn't happen, and it ends up making the soundstage narrow / small.
A crossfeed plugin sends a little of the left to the right, and vice-versa. It really improves the soundstage for most people.
Also, to get wide soundstage in headphones, you should do 2-3 other things.
First, EQ the headphones to get a more neutral frequency response. This helps soundstage by allowing all spatial cues to come through with proper levels.
Next, if you have access to a headphone measuring setup (e.g. MiniDSP EARS) then you can measure the left and right ears of your headphones and create a one-channel EQ that matches the left and right channels better. This improves soundstage by eliminating errors between left and right ears.
Last, try crossfeed. With speakers, your left ear hears some of the right speaker, and vice-versa. With headphones, this doesn't happen, and it ends up making the soundstage narrow / small.
A crossfeed plugin sends a little of the left to the right, and vice-versa. It really improves the soundstage for most people.
renaudrenaud
Major Contributor
Wide soundstage? AKG Kxxx ?
DVDdoug
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This might be interesting - Headphone soundstage survey
...It's mostly your brain and the recording.
...It's mostly your brain and the recording.
staticV3
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Another reference point: rtings' Passive Soundstage score: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/table/123570
The methodology is explained here.
Unsurprisingly, the X2HR already ranks near the top, which reflects my personal experience with it as well. I think it sounds very spacious.
I cannot recommend the K712 though. I own two of them actually and really do not like the sound of them. Both in stock form and with EQ applied.
The methodology is explained here.
Unsurprisingly, the X2HR already ranks near the top, which reflects my personal experience with it as well. I think it sounds very spacious.
I cannot recommend the K712 though. I own two of them actually and really do not like the sound of them. Both in stock form and with EQ applied.
Mr. Haelscheir
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For me, a minimum for experiencing a large "soundstage" is for the headphones to have large earpads such that absolutely nothing is touching your ears. The entry level for some of the largest pads out there is the HiFiMan Edition XS, though that would run you around 400 Euros; higher models mainly afford better build, maybe nicer aesthetics, better sub-bass extension, and likely better distortion performance and driver matching. The rest regarding "soundstage" would to me constitute artifacts of frequency response, a dip around 1 kHz to 3 kHz tending to be interpreted by many as "width" or "space", while for me, that just dulls the sound of some instruments. My preferred method of attaining more "spaciousness" in headphones is to listen to sine sweeps and pink noise and use EQ to smooth out peaks or tame any frequency bands that seem to be getting too loud; I use Equalizer APO for this. Treble peaks for me tend to amplify noise or present a hiss one may not realize is there, detracting from the spaciousness. Midrange bloat can also detract from clarity and spaciousness. Otherwise, I have never really noticed any actual differences in image size or span between headphones, the sound sources seeming to occupy the same space, the headphone earpads and drivers simply presenting differently sized windows for "viewing" that space.
I also recommend crossfeed for creating a better forward image or taming sound sources that seem to be panned too far to the left or right. I personally use foobar2000 and the bs2b crossfeed plugin while using VB-Cable and foo_record to feed my PC's audio through that crossfeed (intimidating at first, but it was quite worth it). One thing I have found is that folks probably hype soundstage "width" too much when rather in live concerts, most of the sonic image is perceived right in front of you within the span of the orchestra or musicians, the only real "width" to be considered being the sensation of a void of sound (other than some reflected sound) to the sides. For me, that "void" can be achieved with the help of bs2b as well as EQing down the treble peaks. I've personally found that basic crossfeed filters struggle with properly bringing higher-frequency content forward. I had gone as far as to purchase speakers and a kit from Earfish to measure my HRTF (basically the frequency response and timing relations your ears receive from sound sources from every direction) with in-ear microphones, my plugging that into the SPARTA AmbiRoomSim and AmbiBIN or Binauraliser NF VST plugins in the Reaper DAW; generic HRTF files could work, though some imaging or tonal changes may be wrong for your ears. After EQing my headphones to match my measured responses for an equilateral stereo triangle (post #61) (speakers 30 degrees to the left and right), I can now simulate anechoic free-field (aka. "clean" and nigh perfectly neutral) listening, the head-tracking sensor allowing me to rotate my head toward individual sound sources in the stereo field laid out in front of me between the two virtual sound sources. With this, all sound sources and frequency content are coherently imaged before you without anything being panned beyond the bounds of the virtual stereo field (unless the mixing engineer used some special trickery). These plugins also support fairly convincing simulation of surround sound. I used Voicemeeter and Rearoute to route up to 8 channels from my PC audio into appropriate settings within the aforementioned SPARTA plugins.
As for EQing each channel to implement better matching of the frequency responses and hence more coherent imaging, I would rather listen to sine sweeps and conduct EQ adjustments to ensure that the pure tones always sound centered, whereby any wandering left and right means that one channel is playing that frequency more loudly or quietly than the other; Equalizer APO's variable-band graphic EQ would allow for easier point-to-point EQing of individual frequencies. MiniDSP EARS represents only one pair of perfectly symmetrical ears, whereby I would rather acquire a pair of in-ear microphones (post #5,152) and cross-check that against what I actually hear in sine sweeps. As I have found in practice (post #4,665), EQing headphones based on measurements from the same test rig does not guarantee that those headphones will come to have the same frequency response on your own head and ears.
I also recommend crossfeed for creating a better forward image or taming sound sources that seem to be panned too far to the left or right. I personally use foobar2000 and the bs2b crossfeed plugin while using VB-Cable and foo_record to feed my PC's audio through that crossfeed (intimidating at first, but it was quite worth it). One thing I have found is that folks probably hype soundstage "width" too much when rather in live concerts, most of the sonic image is perceived right in front of you within the span of the orchestra or musicians, the only real "width" to be considered being the sensation of a void of sound (other than some reflected sound) to the sides. For me, that "void" can be achieved with the help of bs2b as well as EQing down the treble peaks. I've personally found that basic crossfeed filters struggle with properly bringing higher-frequency content forward. I had gone as far as to purchase speakers and a kit from Earfish to measure my HRTF (basically the frequency response and timing relations your ears receive from sound sources from every direction) with in-ear microphones, my plugging that into the SPARTA AmbiRoomSim and AmbiBIN or Binauraliser NF VST plugins in the Reaper DAW; generic HRTF files could work, though some imaging or tonal changes may be wrong for your ears. After EQing my headphones to match my measured responses for an equilateral stereo triangle (post #61) (speakers 30 degrees to the left and right), I can now simulate anechoic free-field (aka. "clean" and nigh perfectly neutral) listening, the head-tracking sensor allowing me to rotate my head toward individual sound sources in the stereo field laid out in front of me between the two virtual sound sources. With this, all sound sources and frequency content are coherently imaged before you without anything being panned beyond the bounds of the virtual stereo field (unless the mixing engineer used some special trickery). These plugins also support fairly convincing simulation of surround sound. I used Voicemeeter and Rearoute to route up to 8 channels from my PC audio into appropriate settings within the aforementioned SPARTA plugins.
As for EQing each channel to implement better matching of the frequency responses and hence more coherent imaging, I would rather listen to sine sweeps and conduct EQ adjustments to ensure that the pure tones always sound centered, whereby any wandering left and right means that one channel is playing that frequency more loudly or quietly than the other; Equalizer APO's variable-band graphic EQ would allow for easier point-to-point EQing of individual frequencies. MiniDSP EARS represents only one pair of perfectly symmetrical ears, whereby I would rather acquire a pair of in-ear microphones (post #5,152) and cross-check that against what I actually hear in sine sweeps. As I have found in practice (post #4,665), EQing headphones based on measurements from the same test rig does not guarantee that those headphones will come to have the same frequency response on your own head and ears.
I would definitely recommend some of those Hifiman on that list - especially the Edition XS - in that price range its is easily my favourite headphone for soundstage.
- Thread Starter
- #10
X2HRs improve with equalizer?
Ricardus
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Check out a few online reviews (which are largely meaningless), find a pair in your price range, and buy.
it'll be fine.
Dazerdoreal
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As the K712 has been mentioned:
K702 with K712 pads are likely the better K712. Once I understood that the "AKG 702 65th anniversary edition" is exactly this, I bought 712 pads for my 702 and EQd accordingly. They do not have that 1500hz dip. I prefered the comfort as well as the sounds of the pads, and they were easier to EQ for me.
Oratory1990 measurements:
K712: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ucv96zjjp8cvv/AKG K712.pdf?dl=0
K702: https://www.dropbox.com/s/033kxyf8a0o3iv6/AKG K702.pdf?dl=0
K702 65th anniversary edition = K702 with K712 pads: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yr8g87j2nb1yo/AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition.pdf?dl=0
K702 with K712 pads are likely the better K712. Once I understood that the "AKG 702 65th anniversary edition" is exactly this, I bought 712 pads for my 702 and EQd accordingly. They do not have that 1500hz dip. I prefered the comfort as well as the sounds of the pads, and they were easier to EQ for me.
Oratory1990 measurements:
K712: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ucv96zjjp8cvv/AKG K712.pdf?dl=0
K702: https://www.dropbox.com/s/033kxyf8a0o3iv6/AKG K702.pdf?dl=0
K702 65th anniversary edition = K702 with K712 pads: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yr8g87j2nb1yo/AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition.pdf?dl=0
Owned AKG K702 long time ago, need powerful amp to bring out its potential. To me the soundstage even though it's wide but sounded a bit hollow
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Powerful amp compared to a dongle you mean I presume? According to manufacturer specs, they reach 110dbSPL with 50mW and are rated for 200mW max.
Last edited:
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Well, most portable DAC/AMP combos can achieve 2V/50mW unbalanced 4V/200mW balanced these days. So something like Qudelix 5K, Moondrop Down or Tempotec BHP Pro should be aboe to drive them to full power no issues.
