What to trust ear or measurement?

[PRL]

If accuracy is irrelevant, why stop at mild distortion? Why not make a "DAC" that always plays your favourite music regardless of what is input?

You’ve touched on one of my bug bears. While I consider it normal to only listen to music that you like I have encountered many audiophiles who only listen to music that sounds good on their system.

I was at a show once talking to a guy exhibiting in a room and when the room next door started playing music louded he sighed and said If I have to listen to the Dave Brubeck quartet one more time I think I’m going to cry”.

 

[tuga]

If accuracy is irrelevant, why stop at mild distortion? Why not make a "DAC" that always plays your favourite music regardless of what is input?

I find accuracy of the utmost importance, only playing the devil's advocate here.

I think that even those who enjoy a bit of euphonic distortion will agree that a high degree of accuracy is important.

 

[tomtoo]

If accuracy is irrelevant, why stop at mild distortion? Why not make a "DAC" that always plays your favourite music regardless of what is input?

Accuracy never can be irrelevant. If someone enjoys a effect device it's ok for me. But i prever if i can effect devices switch on or off and still can here the original. Don't like to have a permanent effect build in.

 

[tuga]

You’ve touched on one of my bug bears. While I consider it normal to only listen to music that you like I have encountered many audiophiles who only listen to music that sounds good on their system.

I was at a show once talking to a guy exhibiting in a room and when the room next door started playing music louded he sighed and said If I have to listen to the Dave Brubeck quartet one more time I think I’m going to cry”.

If you are trying to sell a product then it's only logical to use recordings which are easy to reproduce, impressive and likeable. Barbie, Krell, Pigeon and Bubbles come to mind.

Once at a show they were playing The Moldau from Smetana's Má Vlast (Dorati, Royal Concertgebouw). This is quite a long piece and after a few minutes people started leaving the room. Then a guy stands up and asks: "Don't you have anything with bass?"

 

[LTig]

The two “best” in your sentence bring their own set of standards. It is not a very accurate way to put this: Individual preferences or faithful reproduction.

I, personally, will only choose what makes me happy.

Isn't this what we all do? The point here is that if one chooses based on uncontrolled listening one should not say that the chosen unit is better than the rejected one - at least not without stating that this is a pure subjective opinion.

 

[Wes]

I agree, I stopped reading reviews ages ago.

As for measurements, I think that they are helpful for people who enjoy euphonic distortions to track down equipment similar to what they like just as much as they are for those of us who prefer accuracy.

I read Kal's reviews of 2 active speakers just last week.

 

[Jimbob54]

The fsb said, " ... the measurements crowd could profit from tackling the question of what ... do they want to listen to, which is a fundamentally aesthetic problem ... "

Imagine the mastering engineer playing through his final file one last time ... sitting back, nodding to himself, and hitting "send". That is the file I want to listen to, exactly, with nothing added, nothing altered, and nothing taken away. That's a purely technical issue, not aesthetic. The aesthetics are in the mastered file. I might like them or not, but always the credit or blame lies with the file, not my gear.

The only way I know to achieve what I want is the suite of measurements we have developed. The question of audibility is a good one. I would argue that science per se says go for the max. It's cost-conscious applied engineering that says no, stop when it's good enough. I get satisfaction in getting the best margins available, purely in principle, partly for peace of mind, and partly to reward the efforts of designers I value.

The alternative is like walking up the steps of the Louvre in Paris and having an attendant hand you a pair of rose-tinted glasses, and being told that because some of the paintings look a bit stark, it's better to view the whole collection through the filter.

Ah, but what if the master was made intentionally to sound "good" on "bad" kit?

In fairness, if that's the case, the track itself is probably rubbish in and of itself, regardless of how it was mastered or is played back.

 

[mansr]

Ah, but what if the master was made intentionally to sound "good" on "bad" kit?

For one particular piece of bad kit, possibly, but how could you master something for all the different kinds of badness at the same time?

 

[Jimbob54]

For one particular piece of bad kit, possibly, but how could you master something for all the different kinds of badness at the same time?

Small and boomy little boxes. Or possibly plastic and boomy earphones /headphones. When I say "sound good" I mean "sound less bad" or "more to the modern trends"

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Once at a show they were playing The Moldau from Smetana's Má Vlast (Dorati, Royal Concertgebouw). This is quite a long piece and after a few minutes people started leaving the room. Then a guy stands up and asks: "Don't you have anything with bass?"

What we have there is a failure to communicate.

 

[CDMC]

I agree, I stopped reading reviews ages ago.

As for measurements, I think that they are helpful for people who enjoy euphonic distortions to track down equipment similar to what they like just as much as they are for those of us who prefer accuracy.

This is very true. I have a bias toward a warmer speaker with a bit of midbass peak and slightly laid back upper mid range, probably because most of my listening is rock and alternative. Good measurements help me identify speakers I will likely enjoy far more than some person waxing on poetically about how the speaker made sugar plum fairies dance before them, while telling me nothing about how they really sound. This of course ignores that if you ask people to describe the sound, they will often have very different views (take a look at when soundstage did a blind speaker test shootout and some would call a speaker bright, others laid back).

I attribute part of the problem to people not wanting to just accept, they may like sound that is less than accurate. Instead they spend all their time trying to convince themselves that they have magic ears.

I think measurements are also great for showing the smoke and mirrors that a great deal of high end equipment has become. You have people that are taking Class D amp modules, building proprietary buffers, throwing them in a fancy box and charging $10,000 for the same module I can buy, with the better performing stock buffer, in a still nice enclosure for $1,000. Same goes for DACs, preamps, streamers, and cables.

For me, keep it as clean and distortion free to the speakers as possible and let me pick speakers that color the sound as I want, or as I have jumped into the realm of digital equalization, equalize how I want.

Most importantly, I see so many people just obsessed with the "sound". I don't want to listen to find out if my system reveals a pixie fart, I want it to play the music so I enjoy it. Fortunately for me, both of my systems make me love listening to the music. I don't spend my time listening for imaging, what they reveal or don't, but rather enjoying and dancing to it (a standing desk is great).

 

[JeffS7444]

The way we perceive premium / luxury products really fascinates me, even if it doesn't necessarily make these products better (or even as good as) more pedestrian offerings, and yet I'm drawn to them all the same!

Mercedes Benz employs people including Claudia Schempp and Sabine Engelhardt to define the scent of automotive luxury:
https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/vehicle-development/love-goes-through-nose/
https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/vehicle-development/a-fragrance-for-the-new-s-class/

And with this making-of video by Hermes and Leica Camera, a canvas-covered cardboard presentation box becomes a lust-worthy thing in it's own right:

Note the careful use of lighting and sound to emphasize texture which make this viewer want to touch the items in question, perhaps smell the leather and canvas too.

The only human sense not being addressed is taste, but I've held the baseplate of Leica cameras between my teeth so many times that in a way, that too has been covered.

 

[Robbo99999]

No. He doesn't know what he is hearing. He knows what he is perceiving based on biases (including commercial ones), using his imagination, preconceptions of price, designer reputation, etc. I have tested myself and countless other people this way. The conclusions are almost always wrong.

You have to first do proper listening where you are only judging sound. Only then you can make inferences regarding whether the sound is better or worse, preferred, or not.

I have listened to countless types of tube and high distortion audio products that people say color the sound to one's liking. In vast majority of times the colorations and distortions are beyond just about any audiophile to detect let alone characterize as being coloration. In other times, they make things sound terrible as it harsher, brighter, etc. which no self-respecting audiophile would admit is "good."

Steve used to be an audio salesman so let me tell you a story about that. At our company, Madrona Digital we get reps visiting us representing audio companies all the time. A new rep came over one day and I asked him about his background. He said he knew nothing about audio when he worked at a high-end audio company but quickly rose to be the #1 salesman. I asked him how he did that. He said he would have someone come to buy a cheap CD player (this is years ago). He would show him one but before the deal was done, he would take him to a high-end CD player. All he had to do was push the button to open the drawer. The smooth operation of that mechanical motion was enough to make the customer pay thousands of dollars more for that CD player!

Similar story from years before that: I was talking to engineering VP at a large high-end audio company about supporting new high-def video formats (they also built AV products). He asked if he could get our help to build their own drives. I asked why? He said the sound that the drawer made was everything to them! That they spent huge amount of time researching the gearing and motor used to give that wonderful feeling of quality of that drawer opening.

Here is the kicker: that company's product was what that rep was selling!!!

We eat with our eyes, chefs say. Same for audio. Don't put value on faulty listening tests. Don't be a victim of marketing. Don't believe in people who don't know what they are doing.

Hey, well in that case, lets have affordable no-nonsense good to excellent measuring gear focussed uncompromisingly on performance rather than aesthetics, and then have all of that with top notch aesthetics for the rich audiophile that loves to enhance their real great sound with a bit of subjective visual flavour. I gotta say I'm more of being in the former camp....I'm not rich enough to be the latter, and I can love even the ugly! What's gotta be stayed away from, and also not produced (we live in hope) is the expensive good looking gear that measures awfully...now that's a sin!

And with your food analogy, and eating with our eyes, for me that's an important part of food, but it doesn't extend into audiophile for me, but I totally get why it would.

 

[oldsysop]

I only trust the measurements and my ears.
My ears are not those of Dan D 'Agostino, Steve Guttemberg.
Nor do I trust Amir ears.

 

[Inner Space]

Hey, well in that case, lets have affordable no-nonsense good to excellent measuring gear focussed uncompromisingly on performance rather than aesthetics, and then have all of that with top notch aesthetics for the rich audiophile that loves to enhance their real great sound with a bit of subjective visual flavour.

Exactly - couldn't agree more. I'm putting together a system right now - house owners will understand - we had a minor heating issue and three months later ended up with a completely new heating system and a finished basement. I made part into a listening room - likely my last, and my last system. I'm choosing gear based on maximum accurate measured transparency, and if there are options, I'm going for pleasant tactile, visual and mechanical feel.

 

[Robbo99999]

Exactly - couldn't agree more. I'm putting together a system right now - house owners will understand - we had a minor heating issue and three months later ended up with a completely new heating system and a finished basement. I made part into a listening room - likely my last, and my last system. I'm choosing gear based on maximum accurate measured transparency, and if there are options, I'm going for pleasant tactile, visual and mechanical feel.

Nice, sounds ideal. Although if I'm being picky I'd probably choose a room with a view to go along with my audio nirvana....the stars are not yet aligned!

 

[thefsb]

One forum member who is considered to be a technical expert has opined that a 72db SINAD for the entire electronics chain is all most people can hear with 78db for a few select people, mainly young. However, people are chasing numbers around this place like crazy.

Well, yes but isn't it largely harmless? So long as the household remains solvent what does it matter if the gear performs way better than required?

I failed the 128 kbps MP3, 320 kbps MP3, lossless test, btw.

 

[thefsb]

The product is also not entertainment. The content is entertainment.

Are you sure? I have the impression that for some consumers, owning the equipment is most of the fun.

 

[MattHooper]

There is no science to taste.
We like what we like.

But isn't that just what the work done by Toole, Harmon et all actually does quantify? Their research has allowed them to predict the types of speaker designs most people will rate as most pleasing. (Not to mention any number of human-sciences research human tastes).

The ultimate goal of a stereo system is to provide listening pleasure. If someone gets pleasure from a flawed or lower-fi system you can't assume that he is deluded or mistaken.

Agreed, so long as the person in question is cognizant that he is or may be listening to colorations (and not deluded that he isn't).

But your point, I take it, is that some can enjoy certain colorations - colorations that are audible - and so it is no delusion or mistake for that person to seek out that experience.

 

[MattHooper]

Amir: "The product is also not entertainment. The content is entertainment."

Are you sure? I have the impression that for some consumers, owning the equipment is most of the fun.

Agreed. Amir's comment there struck me as a bit self-referential. If he's speaking for himself, sure. But clearly many audiophiles find the equipment itself to be part of the entertainment (conceptually, aesthetically, engineering-wise, sonically...)