What speaker brands would you consider better than Revel?

[q3cpma]

Yes, as I wrote just decent, although their drivers are good, a bit old school approach without the usage of waveguides.
I wouldn't put them worse than most Dynaudio designs though which seem to be based on very similar principles, good drivers but not perfect rest.

I'd put them in the same bag before, but Dynaudio has really embraced DSP, and their LYD 5 was quite nice.

 

[Helicopter]

It's not too bad, but:
* Distorsion doesn't really track the typical musical content, so it'll probably be limited by its midrange compared to the Krauts' and Finns'.
* Cabinet seem to exhibit a lot of small resonances pointing to a suboptimal design.
* On-axis is quite bumpy, with a 5 dB window.
* Off-axis is, let's say, typical of designs without a waveguide and crossover not optimized to compensate for it.

My impression of Focal is simple: unlike Genelec, Neumann or even Dynaudio, they put drivers and amplifiers in a box, but they don't go further in the integration.

Focal designed special drivers for the monitors. They are not using DSP, but this is also so for many Neumans. Neuman has proven DSP is an option, but not actually necessary to nail FR. In a big room in a house, the deviation from perfection in a Focal is still going to be dominated by the room.

I wouldn't even consider studio monitors in a room like this. I want a minimum of 2 8-inch drivers in a cabinet with proper volume to match them. I think of the application of a nearfield monitor as somewhere between a headphone and a big floorstander.

 

[hyperplanar]

Focal designed special drivers for the monitors. They are not using DSP, but this is also so for many Neumans. Neuman has proven DSP is an option, but not actually necessary to nail FR. In a big room in a house, the deviation from perfection in a Focal is still going to be dominated by the room.

I wouldn't even consider studio monitors in a room like this. I want a minimum of 2 8-inch drivers in a cabinet with proper volume to match them. I think of the application of a nearfield monitor as somewhere between a headphone and a big floorstander.

The KH120, 310, and 420 may not have DSP, but their PCBs have six trim pots and are chock full of quad op amps used for equalization of the FR in analog.

 

[q3cpma]

Focal designed special drivers for the monitors. They are not using DSP, but this is also so for many Neumans. Neuman has proven DSP is an option, but not actually necessary to nail FR. In a big room in a house, the deviation from perfection in a Focal is still going to be dominated by the room.

Didn't say the opposite, Neumann is indeed a good example of what's possible even without DSP. As @hyperplanar said, Neumann does use ASP extensively.

I wouldn't even consider studio monitors in a room like this. I want a minimum of 2 8-inch drivers in a cabinet with proper volume to match them. I think of the application of a nearfield monitor as somewhere between a headphone and a big floorstander.

Well, subwoofers kind of level the competition. Obviously, a single 5" won't do; I'd say KH420 or 8351B/8361A, personally.

 

[detlev24]

Exactly. What most people don't realise is that the bass region extends up to ~300 Hz, where clarity and minimal ringing are most important for accurate reproduction of bass instruments.

Subwoofers wouldn't improve anything fundamentally in these regards, as they usually are limited to <120 Hz. Special "subwoofers" that are designed for extension over the entire bass region, like the Genelec W371A, would be required.

Hence, crossover between LF and MF drivers is crucial in any main loudspeaker, as well as the total cone area available for bass reproduction. A single 5" LF/MF driver certainly wouldn't be able to fill the gap - regardless of how many common subwoofers would be added to extend "weight" of the music.

 

[Pearljam5000]

The Genelec 1237/8 are also beasts and don't get mentioned a lot around here for some reason

 

[detlev24]

The Genelec 1237/8 are also beasts and don't get mentioned a lot around here for some reason [...]

I guess one reason is that they have not been ASR tested (yet), have they?

Furthermore, they wouldn't measure as nicely as 'The Ones' - especially not regarding vertical dispersion. Yet, they provide other advantages which probably wouldn't show easily on those measurements, as people probably got used to certain "looks" of a Genelec loudspeaker's Spinorama.

 

[Helicopter]

I guess its really a question if you want excellent FR, outstanding distortion, classic cabinets, and speakers that might last over 50 years or even better FR, but negligibly better in room, more distortion, several boxes with power cables and signal cables, little contemporary cabinets, and speakers that will be bricked if your amp fails.

I know you will hear FR more than distortion most of the time. I also know big floorstanders in a big room can reproduce cello, piano, and organ outstandingly. I am listening to Yo-Yo Ma and Kathryn Stott this way now.

I am sure the big Genelecs sound good. You might think they look good too. I asked wife if we could get them and she said "No, they're wierd." YMMV.

 

[lovemusic]

To answer the original question I find it hard pressed to find a better passive neutral speakers than Revel. Here is my two cents on other brands when I auditioned them earlier this yr. Most speakers I listened to were the top of their range and some at prices close to $85k.

Active:
Bang & Olufsen Beolab90: Lack of coherency between Tweeter and midrange. Too much Intermodulation.

Passive:
B&W: Tweeter emphasis. Not a neutral speaker.
Paradigm: Recessed upper midrange. Comes across as bony.
Sonus Faber: Better to look at, than use them to play music.
Wilson: Mid range is muddy. Brass instruments didn't sound natural. Gave me a headache.
KEF: Measures well, but typical co-axial speaker issue - 'lack of air' at higher frequencies.
Martin Logan: Too narrow a sweet spot. Integration with the woofer not coherent.
Focal: Doesnt measure well off-axis.
Magico: Extremely pricey for hardly an improvement in performance.


I am yet to audition Vivid Audio, but those cost 5x than the Revel range!

 

[Bear123]

Exactly. What most people don't realise is that the bass region extends up to ~300 Hz, where clarity and minimal ringing are most important for accurate reproduction of bass instruments.

Subwoofers wouldn't improve anything fundamentally in these regards, as they usually are limited to <120 Hz. Special "subwoofers" that are designed for extension over the entire bass region, like the Genelec W371A, would be required.

Hence, crossover between LF and MF drivers is crucial in any main loudspeaker, as well as the total cone area available for bass reproduction. A single 5" LF/MF driver certainly wouldn't be able to fill the gap - regardless of how many common subwoofers would be added to extend "weight" of the music.

Wow, that would be a tough $9,000 pill to swallow. I'd DIY or pay a cabinet shop to DIY a pair of subs using the BMS18n862 driver, or perhaps the B&C15DS115 if you wanted a smaller driver. The BMS are the best subs I've heard. Pretty sure one could have extremely high end custom furniture grade cabs with either of those drivers and superb amplification such as speakerpower, and land on a *pair* for half the cost of *one* of the W371A. No way its remotely close to worth the cost. Not even half.

I agree that typical home use subwoofers aren't great above 120 Hz. And of course also completely agree a single 5" isn't adequate for a larger space with even moderate listening levels. Especially if we consider 3-6 dB of eq below 300 Hz is highly likely if we are striving for high fidelity.

Also, not sure who would want this in their living room:

 

[Helicopter]

I bet JBL M2 would be awesome in a room like this, but at $12k MSRP is double Focal Aria 948 and Focals usually have better deals. They are acceptable aesthetically, but no Focals. I know that is totally subjective with varying preferences.

Another speaker matching the criteria of the opening post, and worth looking at is JBL HDI 3800.

 

[Bear123]

How about a pair of KEF R11, mated to a pair of good subs:
KEF R11
PSA S1512
or
Rythmik E15HP

Under $8k

 

[Pearljam5000]

I would buy the Sopra 3 for its looks alone lol
Obviously they probably sound amazing too

 

[detlev24]

Wow, that would be a tough $9,000 pill to swallow. I'd DIY or pay a cabinet shop to DIY a pair of subs using the BMS18n862 driver, or perhaps the B&C15DS115 if you wanted a smaller driver. The BMS are the best subs I've heard. Pretty sure one could have extremely high end custom furniture grade cabs with either of those drivers and superb amplification such as speakerpower, and land on a *pair* for half the cost of *one* of the W371A. No way its remotely close to worth the cost. Not even half.

I agree that typical home use subwoofers aren't great above 120 Hz. And of course also completely agree a single 5" isn't adequate for a larger space with even moderate listening levels. Especially if we consider 3-6 dB of eq below 300 Hz is highly likely if we are striving for high fidelity. [...]

I completely agree. The W371A was just an example and arguably shows the worst price/performance ratio of any Genelec loudspeaker, thus far. But hey, didn't we just recently talk about Kii THREE's BXT module?

The more realistic approach is to not go for bookshelf loudspeakers - or to add subwoofers like the Rythmik Audio FM8 as "speaker stands"; which is designed for LPF as high as 250(!) Hz. Additional subwoofers [the usual types, <120 Hz] could always be integrated for, let's say, a separate LFE channel.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Just discovered these JBLs
Wow

 

[Helicopter]

I would buy the Sopra 3 for its looks alone lol
Obviously they probably sound amazing too
View attachment 98984

Kinda my long term plan is to build a new house with a bigger room, maybe 25x40 with 18ft vaulted ceiling and by then hopefully there is a new version of this with a better baffle like Kanta, and get that speaker. I might do Focal in wall speakers though. Depends if they are still making them in France then. Focal Aria 948 is great for now and the years ahead.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

My Kii Threes suffered from a bad batch of hypex amplifiers and both of them died within weeks of each other. Since they had to be sent to Kii to be fixed, it was a real hassle. Unfortunate circumstances in shipping made it a whole 10 months before I got them back.

I refuse to go through such hassle again, so if I can't replace parts myself or have it serviced in my own city, I won't buy.

Active speakers should have outboard electronics, or at least mounted such a way that it's easy to screw off.

I had a similar experience with the Smyth A16 Realiser, it was sent away on Jannuary 8th of this year b/c it locked up, and wasn't returned repaired until after Labor Day. Makes me leary of buying any piece of high end technology that need to be serviced abroad.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Kinda my long term plan is to build a new house with a bigger room, maybe 25x40 with 18ft vaulted ceiling and by then hopefully there is a new version of this with a better baffle like Kanta, and get that speaker. I might do Focal in wall speakers though. Depends if they are still making them in France then. Focal Aria 948 is great for now and the years ahead.

That's a good plan, Focal always improve their designs, they will always make their higher end models by hand in France because It's one of the key selling points.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I would buy the Sopra 3 for its looks alone lol
Obviously they probably sound amazing too

 

[richard12511]

I completely agree. The W371A was just an example and arguably shows the worst price/performance ratio of any Genelec loudspeaker, thus far. But hey, didn't we just recently talk about Kii THREE's BXT module?

The more realistic approach is to not go for bookshelf loudspeakers - or to add subwoofers like the Rythmik Audio FM8 as "speaker stands"; which is designed for LPF as high as 250(!) Hz. Additional subwoofers [the usual types, <120 Hz] could always be integrated for, let's say, a separate LFE channel.

Genelec subwoofers offer worse value than the W371A imo. My two 7370c($4,000) are easily outdone by just 1 of my RS2s($3,500), nevermind 2 of them. At least with the W371A you're getting something that very few loudspeakers on earth can do(perfect directivity control from 50-450Hz). Only rea value with the 7370c I see is the size(it's impressive for how small it is) and connectivity. I see the W371A not as a subwoofer, but as an option to turn your ones into a tower speaker version, and towers are often 2x+ more expensive than bookshelves in the same line at the high end.

Don't get me wrong, though, they are overpriced. I think a more fair price would be about $5k each. My logic for that price comes from the competitive Revel prices. Revel charges $12k to "upgrade" the Gem2 into a tower(Salon2), and given that 8351/8361 are similar in price to the Gem2, I think it would make sense to price the Genelec Tower similarly to the Revel Tower.

Also, like the Salon2, the Genelec Tower makes the tweeter too high .