What is Alan Shaw on about? (is "coloration" unmeasurable?)

[CapMan]

They seem to be successful though with their voicing strategy for the corresponding market, just one recent example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-detail-retrieval.44788/page-26#post-1622220
A neutral loudspeaker doesn't really stand out in the showroom compared to other neutral loudspeakers.

I believe B&W are no longer independent - bought by Sound United in 2020 as an aside.

I have been a Harbeth P3 owner for a couple of years now having downsized from some very expensive Carbon fibre jobbies. I use the P3s in my 12x12’ room with a pair of SVS 3000 micro subs and am very happy.

They are a little rolled off at the top and likely not the last word in resolution, but I can listen for many hours without fatigue or any desire to skip tracks. I don’t need to pick my music to suit the speaker; I’m as happy with ancient Louis Armstrong hot fives and sevens albums as a SOTA HiFi show jazz recording . I do not have to play at reference volumes to enjoy the music. These ‘features’ very important to me.

I know what they do well and what they do less well and have made a conscious choice about the compromise.

My own experiences of Alan and his employees are entirely positive. I recently had cause to ask for their support (through my own error) and was treated to a tour of the factory, some lunch and a cup of tea, whilst my self inflicted speaker issue was resolved without fuss or charge. As an engineer I was impressed by their level of documentation, attention to detail and quality control. I was also struck by the common sense of purpose in the team. It’s a small business that provides good jobs for the local people of Sussex and has done for nearly 40 years under Alan’s careful stewardship.

So - not here to defend Harbeth as SOTA, but as a very happy owner, loving his music.

 

[Beave]

I believe B&W are no longer independent - bought by Sound United in 2020 as an aside.

They were owned by somebody else (Eva Automation starting in 2016) before Sound United bought them in 2020.

And now Sound United has been bought by Masimo (in 2022).

 

[krabapple]

With respect to a "much deeper understanding and optimisation of loudspeaker design", how did any loudspeaker system designers come to produce in the 2020s the following (B&W 805 D4),
View attachment 291688
when in the 1970s the same company managed to produce the following (B&W DM6)?

Stereophile, TAS and their ilk keep encouraging them, is one possible answer

 

[sergeauckland]

Stereophile, TAS and their ilk keep encouraging them, is one possible answer

And John Bowers is no longer alive. I can't see someone who designed the Active 1 or the DM70 or the original 801 being responsible for that sort of frequency response.

S.

 

[kemmler3D]

The marketing department happened!

That's what I was going to say, their understanding of loudspeaker design may or may not have improved, but it looks like their understanding of sales and marketing have deepened considerably.

Well, to be fair, there's nothing neutral about the B&W house sound these days, but people seem to like it anyway. I personally really enjoyed the P7 headphones for what they are.

 

[thewas]

Well, to be fair, there's nothing neutral about the B&W house sound these days, but people seem to like it anyway. I personally really enjoyed the P7 headphones for what they are.

The P7 aren't really neutral either though https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bowers-wilkins/p7

 

[kemmler3D]

The P7 aren't really neutral either though https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bowers-wilkins/p7

Yeah, that's what I meant, even though not neutral, I found them enjoyable.

 

[CT Man]

Stereophile, TAS and their ilk keep encouraging them, is one possible answer

For decades I used the B&W Matrix 3 Series 2 with Adcom components from the same vintage. A few years ago I decided to replace that system. I created a playlist of the music I listen to where each track tested one or more apsects. I hear a lot of acoustic live music and speakers needed to sound as close to natural as possible, such as solo classical piano and guitar. Opera with full orchestras, choruses, solo voices and huge transients. The subtle differences among acoustic jazz bassists. And jazz singers with exceptional control of coloration (probably meaning ability to subtly alter harmonics and overtones). For my aging ears I also chose a couple problem tracks with excessive reverb (or reflections) mixed with complex high frequencies (soprano voices, trumpets, flutes, piccolos, cymbals, etc).

I was horrified by the sound of modern B&W. Screechy and empty sounding to me. Much worse than my Matrix 3.2. Hard to believe they came from the same company. I auditioned numerous speakers with my test playlist and Harbeth 40.2 came closest to what I was seeking, although I must say I had to mentally compensate what are some truly horrible audition rooms at high-end dealers.

In the end, the Harbeths sound great to my ears with the music I listen to in my living room with moderate acoustic treatment. I believe measurements are very useful for narrowing the candidate speakers, but no system in a room is perfect, and my ears even less so. So the question for me was finding the point where one sets aside relatively minor objective differences and start focusing on what sounds right subjectively.

I'd say the one place where the Harbeths fall short is the need to be in a fairly precise location in my 12' x 24' room to hear them at their best. I'm not sure if I'd be sacrificing something important to me with speakers that did better in that regard.

 

[ahofer]

I'd say the one place where the Harbeths fall short is the need to be in a fairly precise location in my 12' x 24' room to hear them at their best

Yes, they have a bit of a "head in a vice" problem (you can see my SHL5+ in the picture to the left).

In my other system I have Revel F228be, and I don't mind sitting off center at all with those. I would say the Revel has a less aggressive roll-off in the high end, but you could change that in EQ. I think it is the more uneven dispersion in the presence range that causes that position-sensitivity with Harbeth.

Audition rooms are a nightmare. The best I could do was audition for a while and make sure I didn't feel fatigued. And I totally agree on B&W. I owned some 30 years ago and I couldn't believe what I was hearing when I auditioned them in 2019. But it is readily visible in their measurements, and appears to be kind of a house tuning across the family.