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What is Alan Shaw on about? (is "coloration" unmeasurable?)

ThoFi

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Incidentally, this may be a Harbeth competitor, even an M40 competitor, for much, much less. It would be interesting to hear them side by side.


The response linearity (my new favorite measurement) looks kind of bad to me on the Linton. AS talks about things that sound a bit like response linearity (when discussing the material of their driver). But AS has never shared any measurements on his speakers [AARGH, citizen scientist indeed], and nobody is sending them to Erin. I need to send mine.
Citizen science but no measurements :facepalm:
 

krabapple

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Not sure what all the current flapping is about since we do have an Amir measuremed result for a (admittedly ~2002 vintage) Harbeth bookshelf speaker. To paraphrase him, the reputational 'halo' was not borne out by the measurements.


Maybe someone can send Amir one of the newer models?
 
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ahofer

ahofer

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Not sure what all the current flapping is about since we do have an Amir measuremed result for a (admittedly ~2002 vintage) Harbeth bookshelf speaker. To paraphrase him, the reputational 'halo' was not borne out by the measurements.


Maybe someone can send Amir one of the newer models?
Yes, I think there are significant differences in models of the last 5 yrs. I haven't wanted to part with mine (Anniversary Edition 2019), and the packaging is at another location. I keep hoping someone nearby to Amir or Erin steps up.

The preference scores were OK, although not spectacular for the new speaker price (those 2002 editions are pretty cheap now, though).
 
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posvibes

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If I remember correctly Alan Shaw used the voice of his grand daughter at one time as the vocal reference in design and development, something he was personally and intimately familiar, and was readily available to reference on a regular basis. I doubt if that is still the case.
 
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ahofer

ahofer

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If I remember correctly Alan Shaw used the voice of his grand daughter at one time as the vocal reference in design and development, something he was personally and intimately familiar, and was readily available to reference on a regular basis. I doubt if that is still the case.
He did. He's good at making his business feel like a spunky underdog story. In that sense, and mostly just that sense, he resembles Paul McGowan.
 
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Waxx

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Incidentally, this may be a Harbeth competitor, even an M40 competitor, for much, much less. It would be interesting to hear them side by side.


The response linearity (my new favorite measurement) looks kind of bad to me on the Linton. AS talks about things that sound a bit like response linearity (when discussing the material of their driver). But AS has never shared any measurements on his speakers [AARGH, citizen scientist indeed], and nobody is sending them to Erin. I need to send mine.
Not really the same kind of speaker concering cabinet construction (thick mdf vs thin mass-damped plywood), but those sound good indeed. I grew up with the original Linton 3XP's (my father's setup) and those still sound great. And when i heared them (in not so good conditions altough) i was happy that they sound very similar relative clean and easy listening. In that sense they are indeed like the Harbeths. But Harbeth does it slightly better i think. If it's worth the price difference is the question then...
 

Phoney

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Not sure what all the current flapping is about since we do have an Amir measuremed result for a (admittedly ~2002 vintage) Harbeth bookshelf speaker. To paraphrase him, the reputational 'halo' was not borne out by the measurements.


Maybe someone can send Amir one of the newer models?

Ofcourse they are not fatigueing if he just makes them recessed in the 1,5-4khz area. That IS actually coloration, and it's clearly measurable in the response itself. If this is also the case with his other speakers, then there's no rocket science as he makes it seem. They just make them have a slightly laidback tuning.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Wouldn’t it have been easier and better for Alan Shaw to say “I don’t know.”
 

Willem

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The British Whathifi is subjectivist nonsense. I am not convinced that these measurements from Newport Test Labs are in the same category. Ceteris paribus, such independent measurements should be viewed as more reliable than manufacturer ones.
Anyway Thofi, what is your contribution on ASR other than your trolling about Harbeth?
 

Blumlein 88

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Ofcourse they are not fatigueing if he just makes them recessed in the 1,5-4khz area. That IS actually coloration, and it's clearly measurable in the response itself. If this is also the case with his other speakers, then there's no rocket science as he makes it seem. They just make them have a slightly laidback tuning.
That is certainly how they sound to me when I have listened to them.
 

krabapple

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All the more reason for someone...maybe Alan Shaw -- to send Amir an M30.2 AE and see if they really perform that well (on axis, at least, from the looks of it; the lack of details about that measurement is concerning).
 
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ahofer

ahofer

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I hadn't seen those measurements, which certainly seem to suggest that on-axis behavior is better. They also alluded to an in-room measurement, but I didn't see it.

However, the main issue with their design is dispersion, and the best we've got is in the Stereophile measurements (Lateral). Notice the likely sound power drop in the 2Khz range. The SHL5+ super tweeter is also obviously a differentiator, but the dispersion/sound power fall-off and recovery is less steep (maybe why people view the 30 and 40 as warmer). You can click through and see that 100-12kHz or so, the on-axis seems pretty flat (although there was an argument about microphone height with the SHL5+)

30.2 anniv. edition:
318harbeth.H302fig4.jpg

SHL5+ (pre-anniversary)
615HLS5fig5.jpg

40.1

1008harH40fig4.jpg
 
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ahofer

ahofer

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link to whathifi that everyone on ASR criticize and not trust at all….?
The easiest way would be that AS shares measurements. Citizen science.
But he do not!?
We get it.
We are working with what we have. I don't have a reason to doubt What Hi-Fi's *measurements*, just their advice and opinions.
 

posvibes

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Australian Hi-Fi magazine have often offered speaker reviews with test data from Newport Test Labs even before they were bought by the What Hi-Fi group. Although I have never been able to find a link to Newport Test Labs as an entity on the web thinking it would have an anechoic chamber or Klippel set up.

I'm not saying that the test data is not kosher, but if cited as provided by Newport Test Labs, then some kind of bona fides should be offered in tandem as to the veracity of the organization doing the testing.
 

Willem

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What people do not seem to realize is that we now have two separate Whathifi's, one with advertorials and the other Australian one with measurements as well. The question remains how long this differentiation will last.
 

witwald

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Just measuring something like on-axis FR and impedance doesn't tell much, there are so many loudspeaker manufacturers and engineers with much deeper understanding and optimisation of loudspeaker design.
With respect to a "much deeper understanding and optimisation of loudspeaker design", how did any loudspeaker system designers come to produce in the 2020s the following (B&W 805 D4),
B&W-805D4.png

when in the 1970s the same company managed to produce the following (B&W DM6)?

B&W-DM6-FR.png
 

thewas

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With respect to a "much deeper understanding and optimisation of loudspeaker design", how did any loudspeaker system designers come to produce in the 2020s the following (B&W 805 D4),
View attachment 291688
when in the 1970s the same company managed to produce the following (B&W DM6)?

View attachment 291689
They seem to be successful though with their voicing strategy for the corresponding market, just one recent example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-detail-retrieval.44788/page-26#post-1622220
A neutral loudspeaker doesn't really stand out in the showroom compared to other neutral loudspeakers. ;)
 

voodooless

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With respect to a "much deeper understanding and optimisation of loudspeaker design", how did any loudspeaker system designers come to produce in the 2020s the following (B&W 805 D4),
View attachment 291688
when in the 1970s the same company managed to produce the following (B&W DM6)?

View attachment 291689
The marketing department happened!
 
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