What DAC should I buy? (R2R or Delta)

[Trell]

I've never noticed any "glare" from my D/S DAC. Then again, it permits me to reduce the intensity of its LED display to a comfortable level. Maybe other DACs have displays with excessive lumens.

What on God's green earth is "DAC glare?" I assume it means the DAC is reproducing the input signal without distortion or modulation, but it's a pretty odd term.

Possibly they like a non-proper filter like NOS that is not transparent and attenuates HF. I guess a high shelf filter with the proper slope could approximate this pretty well, or just get a DAC that has this filter, or similar, option to select from.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've never noticed any "glare" from my D/S DAC. Then again, it permits me to reduce the intensity of its LED display to a comfortable level. Maybe other DACs have displays with excessive lumens.

What on God's green earth is "DAC glare?" I assume it means the DAC is reproducing the input signal without distortion or modulation, but it's a pretty odd term.

Never heard of the dreaded "Sabre glare"? (as opposed to actually having heard it because your system isn't resolving enough etc etc)

 

[Wunderphones]

The recent R2R DACs from Holo measure really well. Really well. Assuming they aren't making up those numbers.

But I haven't seen anybody else making a DAC with either true R2R or other multibit implementation that's anywhere near as clean as modern D/S. Well, that's not quite true: Schiit now has an Yggy variant that measures a lot better than the OG version. Like an order of magnitude better or more.

But the R2R people LIKE all that extra noise. Sounds airy. You need to figure out of you are one of these people. If you don't know, buy D/S, because it'll be waaaay cheaper, so if you have to switch to R2R later, your sunk costs will be lower.

 

[billyjoebob]

I've never noticed any "glare" from my D/S DAC. Then again, it permits me to reduce the intensity of its LED display to a comfortable level. Maybe other DACs have displays with excessive lumens.

What on God's green earth is "DAC glare?" I assume it means the DAC is reproducing the input signal without distortion or modulation, but it's a pretty odd term.

Well you would have to ask @alpha_logic who said

My advice, for what it's worth - just get the 'best' D/S DAC with the features you need, and which you can afford, and then spend your money on cleaning up your signal chain to get rid of excessive glare and treble.

 

[billyjoebob]

Possibly they like a non-proper filter like NOS that is not transparent and attenuates HF. I guess a high shelf filter with the proper slope could approximate this pretty well, or just get a DAC that has this filter, or similar, option to select from.

And what dac is that exactly?

 

[Mnyb]

So.....
Buy a cheap D/S DAC.
Then upgrade the rest of the system to compensate for the excessive glare that the D/S DAC has, and then your left with a similar sound of a R2R DAC?
Yea. That makes sense.

Please don’t spread FUD about “excessive glare that D/S DAC has” this is not a fact , it’s usually goes as “ESS glare “ only blaming one mfg of DS DAC’s .

Such and absurd notion that almost every DAC ( most DAC’s for the last decades are ds DAC’s) in use has an obvious error that can be heard, but mysteriously can’t be found by any scientific investigation is on par with moon hoaxes.

Typically in proper unbiased listenings test it’s very unlikely to tell apart any properly engineered DAC regardless of topology. ( I exclude filtersless DAC’s for obvious reasons , no proper engineering lets massive aliasing artefacts foul the audible range ).

DAC’s seems to be one of the least influential part of your audio system, the amount off attention they get is a bit disproportionate. Sure some are better than others, but upgrades are better considered elsewhere in you system.

 

[Mnyb]

Please don’t spread FUD about “excessive glare that D/S DAC has” this is not a fact , it’s usually goes as “ESS glare “ only blaming one mfg of DS DAC’s .

Such and absurd notion that almost every DAC ( most DAC’s for the last decades are ds DAC’s) in use has an obvious error that can be heard, but mysteriously can’t be found by any scientific investigation is on par with moon hoaxes.

Typically in proper unbiased listenings test it’s very unlikely to tell apart any properly engineered DAC regardless of topology. ( I exclude filtersless DAC’s for obvious reasons , no proper engineering lets massive aliasing artefacts foul the audible range ).

DAC’s seems to be one of the least influential part of your audio system, the amount off attention they get is a bit disproportionate. Sure some are better than others, but upgrades are better considered elsewhere in you system.

Oh sorry I may have quoted the wrong guy was this alpha logic’s claim I may have misread that ?

 

[Jimbob54]

Oh sorry I may have quoted the wrong guy was this alpha logic’s claim I may have misread that ?

I think there was a degree of confusion in that thread. I thought the same as you but then think there was some crossed wires.

 

[alpha_logic]

Oh sorry I may have quoted the wrong guy was this alpha logic’s claim I may have misread that ?

I referred to 'Glare/Treble/Whatever' as an artifact of the rest of the signal chain, NOT the DAC : )

 

[billyjoebob]

Oh sorry I may have quoted the wrong guy was this alpha logic’s claim I may have misread that ?

Thank you.
By the way, I agree with you.
I was just pointing out the absurdity on the other end of R2R dacs.
And for what its worth I own both.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

nowadays there are literally so many good DACs you can buy no matter what price range in comparison to what was available 10-15 years ago.
I used to believe in DAC so much more back when I first began this journey (I still do now but less...frantic). Although I've never done a true proper ABX test I've done plenty of subjective tests and blinded (not level matched) listenings.....
maybe it's my hearing that's limited but I cannot hear reliable, consistent differences between let's say topping d70 and some TOTL dacs like yggdrasil, holospring etc...
the bottomline is I'm just not convinced and pleased by the results I've had with supposedly very "resolving" DACs so I wouldn't care too much about it.

 

[neg]

Never heard of the dreaded "Sabre glare"? (as opposed to actually having heard it because your system isn't resolving enough etc etc)

Properly designed dacs based on eg 9038pro don't have any "glare".
The opposite is also true, I once listened to the one of ak4497-dac ~1000$ cost, which is not on a sabre, but with audible sharpness.
It's also funny that the r2r DACs that I know have a kind of "highlighting" of sharp sounds in combination with
a bad low-signal resolution. Low resolution is easiest for me to hear on electronic music.
But among r2r sectarians, this does not correspond to their beloved "old ancestral ways".

I would really like to hear any r2r-dac that would not turn the sound into mush and has no cassette deck sound.​

 

[Killingbeans]

I would really like to hear any r2r-dac that would not turn the sound into mush and has no cassette deck sound.

The Holo Audio May would probably have no problem satisfying you. But paying $4000+ just to get an R2R that's on par with a cheap SD is beyond silly to me.

Review and Measurements of Holo Audio May --- Probably the best discrete R2R DAC

After I released the measurements of the Holo Audio Spring DAC, something interesting happened. The reason was because I was wrong about the version --- I measured Spring Lv2 instead of what I thought and declared Spring 2 Lv2.When the developer found me and told me this mistake. I was...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[neg]

The Holo Audio May would probably have no problem satisfying you. But paying $4000+ just to get an R2R that's on par with a cheap SD is beyond silly to me.

Review and Measurements of Holo Audio May --- Probably the best discrete R2R DAC

After I released the measurements of the Holo Audio Spring DAC, something interesting happened. The reason was because I was wrong about the version --- I measured Spring Lv2 instead of what I thought and declared Spring 2 Lv2.When the developer found me and told me this mistake. I was...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I know that on this site it is assumed that the Dacs have the same sound, because they are "transparent".
Definitely not, they are all different in one way or another. Another thing is that all decent devices still
come to a certain "common denominator". Personally, I see no reason to pay for may, not because it costs $4,000,
but because this price is a great honor for an r2r matrix, which means absolutely nothing to me, because. I am not
an r2r sectarian. As an end user, I don't care about r2r-dac or ds.
I do not exclude that May sounds good, but my experience of listening
to holo audio spring 2 level 2 was just terrible, if they sound similar, then it's not even worth attention.​

 

[Killingbeans]

I know that on this site it is assumed that the Dacs have the same sound, because they are "transparent".

I think it's a fair assumption. At least when comparing DACs that perfom really well. I've never seen anything other than anecdotal evidence pointing to it as being false. If nothing else, it's a very practical assumption. Saves me from spending time and money on DAC-tasting.

Definitely not, they are all different in one way or another.

They definitely have different looks, price tags and stories surrounding their circuit typologies. The poetry used in marketing and reviews sometimes also differ.

 

[LTig]

I think it's a fair assumption. At least when comparing DACs that perfom really well. I've never seen anything other than anecdotal evidence pointing to it as being false. If nothing else, it's a very practical assumption. Saves me from spending time and money on DAC-tasting.



They definitely have different looks, price tags and stories surrounding their circuit typologies. The poetry used in marketing and reviews sometimes also differ.

Yep, and they all measure differently, but that does not mean they also sound different.

 

[Mnyb]

Well , why not stop trying to use a DAC As a tone control and use an actual tone control or EQ.

If almost never run my system flat , I use a small downwards tilt due to me being quite close and the speakers I have are a bit forward in thier tone .

Me I listen to probably 10 DAC’s at moment due to having active digital speakers ( with digital xover ). I don’t have the faintest idea what make they are , I trust the speakers manufacturer to use something suitable that does the job.
Would probably not go very high in the sinad rankings. But whatever they are they sure have 1/1000 of the colourations passive xover components would have

 

[Wunderphones]

I can totally tell the difference between two transparent DACs. I also spotted some problems with some recent photos from the Hubble space telescope when I looked up at the night sky.

 

[billyjoebob]

I can totally tell the difference between two transparent DACs. I also spotted some problems with some recent photos from the Hubble space telescope when I looked up at the night sky.

Thats some great eyesight!
Don't know what it has to do here.

 

[Killingbeans]

Don't know what it has to do here.

Perspective served as sarcasm.