What DAC should I buy? (R2R or Delta)

[rwortman]

When digital audio first hit the consumer market all the players had R2R DAC’s and audio writers moaned about the digital sound. Some blamed it on distortion caused by imperfect accuracy in the steps of the resistor ladder. Others said it was the antialiasing filters. Out came massive oversampling and the first D/S DAC’s (then called one bit DAC’s). The D/S DAC’s were expensive and every real audiophile scrambled do get one. Now non oversampled R2R DAC’s are praised as wonderful. Were they deaf then or are they deaf now?

Aside: I asked a sales guy at a high end audio store back then how a one bit DAC worked and his explanation was pretty funny.

 

[Wunderphones]

When digital audio first hit the consumer market all the players had R2R DAC’s and audio writers moaned about the digital sound. Some blamed it on distortion caused by imperfect accuracy in the steps of the resistor ladder. Others said it was the antialiasing filters. Out came massive oversampling and the first D/S DAC’s (then called one bit DAC’s). The D/S DAC’s were expensive and every real audiophile scrambled do get one. Now non oversampled R2R DAC’s are praised as wonderful. Were they deaf then or are they deaf now?

Aside: I asked a sales guy at a high end audio store back then how a one bit DAC worked and his explanation was pretty funny.

It's possible that the manufacturers learned to make better NOS R2R DACs.

But I think it's also this: fidelity used to be out of reach. It just wasn't possible for audio manufacturers to get you nothing but your signal. So although makers thought of themselves in the "fidelity" game, they were really in the "sounds good" game. One thing I really like about Nelson Pass is that he's not in denial about this fact like many of his brethren.

And now that fidelity is not only in reach technologically, but under budget, the folks that learned the game the old way have gotten set in their ways. Fidelity is "sterile."

 

[Joe Smith]

Just ordered a JDS Atom+ dac, just to try something new in my main workroom setup. I have been using a Schiit Modi 3 heretofore. Will be interested to see if any audible/tonal difference for me between the AKM and Sabre/ESS chips.

 

[Ninjastar]

Just ordered a JDS Atom+ dac, just to try something new in my main workroom setup. I have been using a Schiit Modi 3 heretofore. Will be interested to see if any audible/tonal difference for me between the AKM and Sabre/ESS chips.

I had been using a Schiit Modi 3 (AKM4490) for over a year and a half. Late last year I finally "upgraded" to a Topping E50 (ES9068AS), which is in the top 10 of SINAD scores that have been measured on this site. I did it mostly because I just wanted a new toy, also it has a small display and digital volume control, which the Modi 3 doesn't have. Also seemed like a good value for a SOTA DAC (measurements-wise). I wasn't really expecting to hear any significant difference/improvement because the Modi 3 already measured very good, and as expected, I didn't hear much difference if any.

Last week, I picked up a Schiit Modi Multibit on the used market locally. It was at a good price, so I figured, why not? I knew it measured very poorly (like the rest of Schiit's multi-bit offerings) prior to picking it up. But I was just curious since it had many positive subjective reviews. I was expecting not to hear any significant differences between it and the Modi 3 or Topping E50 at best, and at worst, that it would sound terrible due to it measuring so bad.

But I have to say I was surprised because I really like the sound of it. Enough so that I most likely will be selling the standard Modi 3 and the Topping E50. Perhaps, I just prefer a "flawed" sound signature, I'm not sure. I'm not going to make any sweeping generalizations and say that I would prefer all Multi-bit (or R2R or FPGA DACs) over Delta-Sigma either, I don't know. All I know is that the well measuring Schiit Modi 3 and Topping E50 sound fine, I don't hear any "digital glare" or anything like that, and I could easily live with either one as my main DAC. But the Modi Multibit just suits my taste preference more and I find I am enjoying my music more through it.

 

[rwortman]

I had a Modi multibit for a while. I had no complaints about the sound. I got rid of it after seeing one too many interviews with its designer.

 

[Joe Smith]

I had a Modi multibit for a while. I had no complaints about the sound. I got rid of it after seeing one too many interviews with its designer.

Ha, understood. I have read some of the blog over at Head Fi. A little of it goes a long way. But I have generally liked their customer service and low end stuff. Jason from JDS overall seems a little more like someone I'd like to hang around with than the Schiit guys.

I have bid on a few Modi Multibits but the price never stayed low enough for me to snag one. I'm curious about the R2R sound, but had a price limit on my interest. The JDS Dac+ gets me higher sampling rates and upgradeable firmware, and I can swap it around to other systems in the house if I still keep the Modi as primary.

 

[jsrtheta]

I heard about digital "glare" in the 1990s, and it was an accusation, similar to bearing the mark of Cain, leveled at the then-SOTA multibit (R2R) dacs like those made by Theta, EAD and PS Audio. 18-bit and 20-bit dacs using Burr Brown chips like the 20-bit PCM63P-K drew the most fire. (And the most praise.) This was also a time when spending anything less than $1000 on a DAC was believed to be abnormal.

Delta/Sigma dacs were few on the ground, and considered outdated. (British DACs often used Delta/Sigma chips, mainly from Philips. Brands like Cambridge Audio, Rotel and Audiolab). The word was that D/S dacs had a warmer sound, while multibits were the more detailed and accurate, but prone to glare.

Then MSB released the Link DAC, with the 24/96 D/S Burr-Brown PCM1716 chip, and everything changed and D/S chips were back big time. And now it's the D/S dacs that have "glare"?

 

[rwortman]

Digital glare is what I do when I read about one DAC with perfectly flat frequency response having more bass than another DAC with perfectly flat frequency response.

 

[alpha_logic]

I heard about digital "glare" in the 1990s, and it was an accusation, similar to bearing the mark of Cain, leveled at the then-SOTA multibit (R2R) dacs like those made by Theta, EAD and PS Audio. 18-bit and 20-bit dacs using Burr Brown chips like the 20-bit PCM63P-K drew the most fire. (And the most praise.) This was also a time when spending anything less than $1000 on a DAC was believed to be abnormal.

Delta/Sigma dacs were few on the ground, and considered outdated. (British DACs often used Delta/Sigma chips, mainly from Philips. Brands like Cambridge Audio, Rotel and Audiolab). The word was that D/S dacs had a warmer sound, while multibits were the more detailed and accurate, but prone to glare.

Then MSB released the Link DAC, with the 24/96 D/S Burr-Brown PCM1716 chip, and everything changed and D/S chips were back big time. And now it's the D/S dacs that have "glare"?

Funny, because it is chips like the PCM63P-K that are now considered 'musical' and 'free of glare' by many praising these and other DAC chips like it : )

 

[jsrtheta]

Funny, because it is chips like the PCM63P-K that are now considered 'musical' and 'free of glare' by many praising these and other DAC chips like it : )

I notice old multibit dacs go for big money now on eBay. If you can find one, which is tough.

 

[Vhond]

R2R can measure well:
See the measurements in this review

 

[Wunderphones]

R2R can measure well:
See the measurements in this review

But one still doesn't buy R2R for the measurements. My $400 SMSL is still cleaner than a Holo May. One only buys R2R because one believes that measurements don't tell the whole story, or because having expensive things makes one feel good.

 

[Jimbob54]

R2R can measure well:
See the measurements in this review

And badly..... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/massdrop-airist-r2r-dac-review.9565/

 

[Jimbob54]

But one still doesn't buy R2R for the measurements. My $400 SMSL is still cleaner than a Holo May. One only buys R2R because one believes that measurements don't tell the whole story, or because having expensive things makes one feel good.

I find the Denafrips Ares II an interesting case study- absolutely nothing wrong with the measurements yet forums, including this one, are full of people swearing its a game changer. I think its a case of a critical mass of a hype train to the point where trying to point out it really shouldnt sound noticeably different to [basically every other competent DAC] is heresy. Woe betide anyone buying it and saying simply "yeah, doesnt sound any different, looks OK, decent engineering though"

 

[Esotechnik]

One only buys R2R because one believes that measurements don't tell the whole story, or because having expensive things makes one feel good.

MSB platinum IV (R2R) have 80 dB fidelity in real music test
RME ADI 2 (sigma-delta) - only 44...53 dB:

Df-measurements of DA/AD loops from Gearslutz forum - Articles - SoundExpert

Artifact signatures of DA/AD converters in similarity space.. SoundExpert news and articles

soundexpert.org

I would like to see the results of such a test for the APx555 arbitrary waveform generator. And two different-type channels of its ADC (SAR vs. sigma-delta), as well as digitizing white noise through them to compare the autocorrelation time. But fans of the obsolete analog SINAD parameter have gathered here, and inconvenient opinions are erased and ridiculed.
MP3 compression have up to 50% THD but sound good.

MEASUREMENTS: Do lossless audio formats sound different? (WAV vs. AIFF vs. FLAC vs. ALAC vs. APE vs. WV vs. lossy MP3 & AAC...)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[neg]

MSB platinum IV (R2R) have 80 dB fidelity in real music test
RME ADI 2 (sigma-delta) - only 44...53 dB:

Df-measurements of DA/AD loops from Gearslutz forum - Articles - SoundExpert

Artifact signatures of DA/AD converters in similarity space.. SoundExpert news and articles

soundexpert.org

I would like to see the results of such a test for the APx555 arbitrary waveform generator. And two different-type channels of its ADC (SAR vs. sigma-delta), as well as digitizing white noise through them to compare the autocorrelation time. But fans of the obsolete analog SINAD parameter have gathered here, and inconvenient opinions are erased and ridiculed.
MP3 compression have up to 50% THD but sound good.
View attachment 188633

MEASUREMENTS: Do lossless audio formats sound different? (WAV vs. AIFF vs. FLAC vs. ALAC vs. APE vs. WV vs. lossy MP3 & AAC...)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Modern msb are not r2r, they are hybrid delta-sigma dac. Also, all ess and akm chips are hybrids, at least modern ones.

 

[Esotechnik]

Also, all ess and akm chips are hybrids, at least modern ones.

Then what did AKM want to improve by 50 dB if everything is already good with sigma delta (4-6 bit)?

AKM proposes D/A Separation Solution for High-end Audio DAC achieving Real Live Sound | Archives 2020 | News | About AKM | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

March 04, 2020. Asahi Kasei Microdevices Corporation (AKM) has expanded its lineup of premium audio Digital-to-Analog converters (DACs) with the development of a two-chip solution that separates the digital aspect from the analog. While conventional DACs use a single chip to convert signals from...

www.akm.com

"The AK4191 has increased the oversampling rate of digital processing to 256x from the previous 8x. This allows for aliasing artifacts due to sampling to be driven even further into the upper frequency range. Additionally, the AK4191’s digital filters can reduce noise by 50 dB more than previous devices."

 

[neg]

Then what did AKM want to improve by 50 dB if everything is already good with sigma delta (4-6 bit)?

It's about noise suppression using a pcm filter.

All normal dacs have pcm filters, it doesn't matter if they are made with r2r matrices or something else. There is a sect of nos-dac lovers who apparently like the distortion that occurs in all subsequent cascades, including the human hearing aid.

 

[jsrtheta]

When digital audio first hit the consumer market all the players had R2R DAC’s and audio writers moaned about the digital sound. Some blamed it on distortion caused by imperfect accuracy in the steps of the resistor ladder. Others said it was the antialiasing filters. Out came massive oversampling and the first D/S DAC’s (then called one bit DAC’s). The D/S DAC’s were expensive and every real audiophile scrambled do get one. Now non oversampled R2R DAC’s are praised as wonderful. Were they deaf then or are they deaf now?

Aside: I asked a sales guy at a high end audio store back then how a one bit DAC worked and his explanation was pretty funny.

The Philips TDA154x family of DAC chips, which were used in many, many inexpensive players and DACs, were not R2R dac chips. Ditto with Bitstream and MASH, and those were designs from the 1980s and very early '90s.

One of the first widely available 24/96 D/S DAC chips was the Burr-Brown PCM1716. IIRC, the chip itself cost about $4.00 each, way cheaper than multibit R2Rs like the PCM63P. It was out in 1997, and used in the MSB Link DAC, which was extremely inexpensive. They sold a boatload of them.

 

[KSTR]

MSB platinum IV (R2R) have 80 dB fidelity in real music test
RME ADI 2 (sigma-delta) - only 44...53 dB:

That's because the test method was/is severly flawed.
Myself, and previously member @pkane have been pointing this out in the gearspace thread (and we were not the only ones) :

Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker - Page 84 - Gearspace.com

Quote: Originally Posted by KSTR ➡️ **) The process of empirical matching of level and subsample offset typically leads to cancellation notches. This due to the algorithm trying to minimize the RMS residual which is of course the goal here. When the gain factor and the offset is varied just the...

gearspace.com

FWIW, in that wrong metric the ADI-2 Pro is suddenly among the best when using the latest firmware which lowers the ADC's digital DC filter cutoff frequency or even switches the filter off and when "Sharp" filters are used on ADC and DAC.
And when one shorts out the physical ADC input coupling capacitors which makes the whole DAC-->ADC chain DC-coupled then the ADI-2 Pro ends up top of the list.
Silly and useless competition game as it is a wrong metric that does not represenet actual quality. Actually I would consider the gearspace list as fake news, spreading false "alternative facts".