Changing impedance will only affect higher frequencies with higher impedance causing a "hump" above 8K to 10K . This is consistent with what you are hearing i.e. brighter and clearer. Since the LF is not affected the perceived difference in the bass is due do different HF response. That is why I like to measure and listen and I am always surprised by how much a boost or cut in one frequency range affects the perception of all the others. In the case of purposeful "coloring" of sound for fun it doesn't make any difference really but when I am trying to work toward a "flat" response I find listening to be very unreliable.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Turntables - help me understand the appeal?
- Thread starter dkinric
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 7,338
- Likes
- 12,307
Thanks. I am a newbie with this stuff and certainly no engineer, so I'm still learning. I knew changing impedance caused frequency shifts, but I didn't know if it could also cause other distortion factors (e.g. lower damping factor for bass, or something like it). But clearly you are saying impedance settings only alter high frequency response.
Hi Matt. I am not an engineer but as far as I know changing the impedance changes the property of what is in essence a "filter"... most of what I know is from this article which explains things well I think https://sound-au.com/articles/cartridge-loading.html . I built some home made 3 way tri-amp active speakers and during the process of getting them dialed in (first by muti-meter, then Oscilloscope, and finally with REW) it was just amazing how a small change in FR affected everything. While I find some "color" fun sometimes I notice vocals sound best to me when the FR is "flat" (10 dB down slope) as vocals cover quite a range so it doesn't take much to noticeably change them.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 7,338
- Likes
- 12,307
Thanks for the link!
Zog
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2019
- Messages
- 255
- Likes
- 290
Hi Serge
When you put your finger on the platter's strobe markings the friction naturally slows the platter and that results in a visible appearance of the 'dots' moving backward and the pitch of the music going lower. Presumably this finger-work would not register with the generator (whatever the 'generator' is).
Andrei
That's correct. The generator runs at a fixed speed, which is what's used to reference the motor speed with the speed fader at zero. In the Mk2 1200, (don't know about later ones) that generator also drove the strobe. When the platter speed changes, either in response to the fader or due to loading, the strobe will indicate the speed change correctly. What it won't do is indicate the correct speed if the generator frequency is off, as both nominal speed and strobe came off the same reference.
S
PMFJI but in this case the generator is trying to make the platter turn at the right speed but you are preventing it by applying a greater braking torque than the motor can overcome. In that case the strobe, if it is powered at the same frequency as the controller generator will continue to flash at the controller frequency but the motor will be unable to keep up.
I agree... I battle ear fatigue all the time when mixing or mastering. And as you pointed out, changes in one part of the spectrum will affect perception in others - that's a common trick we use in the comm gear I design.
Also - I recall a great story of the LA Philharmonic coming off the road and going to their new hall. They mentioned on the first rehearsal that the hall sounded bad. When they came in for the next rehearsal, everyone remarked how much better it sounded.
https://www.latimes.com/la-et-cm-sculpting-the-sound-story.html
"After more than three months of rehearsals, however, what has been altered in the hall can be summarized in two words: hardly anything.
“We’ve been very conservative,” music director Esa-Pekka Salonen said a week ago before leading a public rehearsal. “The basic quality is so good, I would hate to mess it up.”
Toyota’s standard response to the question of what he has been doing at rehearsals is, “Nothing at all.” He is always there, and always listening. But he takes no notes. His only equipment is a small digital camera that he carries everywhere.
And yet, there was a striking change between the way the orchestra sounded at its first rehearsal and at its second, three weeks later.
After the private hour the day of the first rehearsal, the Philharmonic invited about 125 listeners -- board members, $5-million donors, staff members and a couple of journalists -- to hear a run-through of the finale of Mozart’s “Jupiter” Symphony, the slow movement of Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony and the Russian Dance from Stravinsky’s “Petrushka.” The sound was detailed, well balanced and gloriously full in the bass -- a blessed improvement over the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, where the orchestra performed for 40 years.
But it wasn’t perfect. The orchestra was stiff. It had returned that day from a month’s vacation, and it hadn’t performed with its music director for seven weeks. Salonen had flown in from Europe especially for the rehearsal, arriving the night before. Like an expectant father, he said, he had been unable to sleep. It was also his 45th birthday.
When the orchestra finally got its next chance in Disney, it was to rehearse Ravel’s lusciously orchestrated ballet, “Daphnis and Chloe,” which Salonen would conduct at the Hollywood Bowl the next evening. This time, the hall miraculously came to life. Earlier, the orchestra’s sound, wonderful as it was, had felt confined to stage. Now a new sonic dimension had been added, and every square inch of air in Disney vibrated merrily.
Toyota says that he had never experienced such an acoustical difference between a first and second rehearsal in any of the halls he designed in his native Japan. Salonen could hardly believe his ears. To his amazement, he discovered that there were wrong notes in the printed parts of the Ravel that sit on the players’ stands. The orchestra has owned these scores for decades, but in the Chandler no conductor had ever heard the inner details well enough to notice the errors.
So striking was the change that Toyota says the players began asking him what he had done. One violinist was convinced that the acoustician had raised the ceiling by several feet. Another thought it had been lowered. The roof is unmovable, secured by enough steel to withstand a major earthquake.
The change was entirely in the orchestra. Here and there, Salonen held the brass back, but most of what happened was intuitive on the players’ part. In the Chandler, many orchestra members needed to push unnaturally to be heard; in Disney, they can relax. Even so, the players continued to fall back on old habits.
"
https://www.latimes.com/la-et-cm-sculpting-the-sound-story.html
"After more than three months of rehearsals, however, what has been altered in the hall can be summarized in two words: hardly anything.
“We’ve been very conservative,” music director Esa-Pekka Salonen said a week ago before leading a public rehearsal. “The basic quality is so good, I would hate to mess it up.”
Toyota’s standard response to the question of what he has been doing at rehearsals is, “Nothing at all.” He is always there, and always listening. But he takes no notes. His only equipment is a small digital camera that he carries everywhere.
And yet, there was a striking change between the way the orchestra sounded at its first rehearsal and at its second, three weeks later.
After the private hour the day of the first rehearsal, the Philharmonic invited about 125 listeners -- board members, $5-million donors, staff members and a couple of journalists -- to hear a run-through of the finale of Mozart’s “Jupiter” Symphony, the slow movement of Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony and the Russian Dance from Stravinsky’s “Petrushka.” The sound was detailed, well balanced and gloriously full in the bass -- a blessed improvement over the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, where the orchestra performed for 40 years.
But it wasn’t perfect. The orchestra was stiff. It had returned that day from a month’s vacation, and it hadn’t performed with its music director for seven weeks. Salonen had flown in from Europe especially for the rehearsal, arriving the night before. Like an expectant father, he said, he had been unable to sleep. It was also his 45th birthday.
When the orchestra finally got its next chance in Disney, it was to rehearse Ravel’s lusciously orchestrated ballet, “Daphnis and Chloe,” which Salonen would conduct at the Hollywood Bowl the next evening. This time, the hall miraculously came to life. Earlier, the orchestra’s sound, wonderful as it was, had felt confined to stage. Now a new sonic dimension had been added, and every square inch of air in Disney vibrated merrily.
Toyota says that he had never experienced such an acoustical difference between a first and second rehearsal in any of the halls he designed in his native Japan. Salonen could hardly believe his ears. To his amazement, he discovered that there were wrong notes in the printed parts of the Ravel that sit on the players’ stands. The orchestra has owned these scores for decades, but in the Chandler no conductor had ever heard the inner details well enough to notice the errors.
So striking was the change that Toyota says the players began asking him what he had done. One violinist was convinced that the acoustician had raised the ceiling by several feet. Another thought it had been lowered. The roof is unmovable, secured by enough steel to withstand a major earthquake.
The change was entirely in the orchestra. Here and there, Salonen held the brass back, but most of what happened was intuitive on the players’ part. In the Chandler, many orchestra members needed to push unnaturally to be heard; in Disney, they can relax. Even so, the players continued to fall back on old habits.
"
So I can report back on my previous comments and plans; I completed my turntable / integrated amp setup this week. I've been listening to my records every night, and I'm loving the experience!
For context, I'm a guy that grew up listening to CD's and then Mp3s (I had an iPod Mini in high school). My father had a record player that I would play around with, but he didn't have any 'cool' music that I could listen to, so I didn't really use it. My reason for buying a turntable now is to be able to own and play my favorite records that I've discovered and been listening to via a TIDAL > DX3 Pro > HD 650 setup since the beginning of the year. I've also been wanting to own a real Hifi set up with speakers, so buying the turntable and Hi-fi setup kind of coincided.
I'm still totally into digital music for use on the go or in the office (I have a separate DAC/AMP/heaphone setup there). I think having digital / streaming music is totally complementary to owning vinyl records, because it let's me discover music and get to listen to a wide range of artists and albums so when I do buy a physical record I already know that I like it (kind of strikes me as a dream scenario for buying music compared to my younger days of standing at a counter trying to get a store clerk to put a CD into the test system for me to hear). Ok, but enough of that, lets move to the vinyl aspect.
Equipment (all bought used): Dual 505-4 turntable with AT 95E cartridge, Sony F-470 integrated amp, Mission 780 speakers, and using my HD 650 headphones that I had from before (plus all the paraphernalia to make the contraption work as can be seen in the pic lol)
Some observations on the appeal of using the turntable (as per the original topic of the thread) that I can share from my experience are as follows:
For context, I'm a guy that grew up listening to CD's and then Mp3s (I had an iPod Mini in high school). My father had a record player that I would play around with, but he didn't have any 'cool' music that I could listen to, so I didn't really use it. My reason for buying a turntable now is to be able to own and play my favorite records that I've discovered and been listening to via a TIDAL > DX3 Pro > HD 650 setup since the beginning of the year. I've also been wanting to own a real Hifi set up with speakers, so buying the turntable and Hi-fi setup kind of coincided.
I'm still totally into digital music for use on the go or in the office (I have a separate DAC/AMP/heaphone setup there). I think having digital / streaming music is totally complementary to owning vinyl records, because it let's me discover music and get to listen to a wide range of artists and albums so when I do buy a physical record I already know that I like it (kind of strikes me as a dream scenario for buying music compared to my younger days of standing at a counter trying to get a store clerk to put a CD into the test system for me to hear). Ok, but enough of that, lets move to the vinyl aspect.
Equipment (all bought used): Dual 505-4 turntable with AT 95E cartridge, Sony F-470 integrated amp, Mission 780 speakers, and using my HD 650 headphones that I had from before (plus all the paraphernalia to make the contraption work as can be seen in the pic lol)
Some observations on the appeal of using the turntable (as per the original topic of the thread) that I can share from my experience are as follows:
- It's interesting to learn how the record player works, how to set it up properly, seeing what to consider when using it
- I enjoy owning the quality, well made audio equipment that goes along with playing vinyl records
- The imperfect sound has character
- The music sounds warmer, more alive and deeper; acoustic and vocal music (such as early Bob Dylan records) sound excellent
- I enjoy seeing the record turning while the music plays
- There are no software, audio / driver settings, or internet connectivity issues that can affect playback
- I can see the whole record cover artwork while the record plays
- Playing the record involves a deliberate preparation process
- I appreciate listening to the music much more
- I listen to a smaller range of music that I really enjoy
- The mastering, song order, and editing of the vinyl records is sometimes different from the same record in TIDAL (The Who, Live in Leeds is a big example)
- The music seems to end too soon (in a good way)
- I can see the progress of the stylus across the record
- Songs at the end of a side actually sound like they're closing a chapter, or leading to an intermission (especially the Pink Floyd albums)
- I enjoy the collectability of vinyl records and pride of ownership from having original versions my my favorite records (rock n roll, folk etc.)
- Listening to music from vinyl records feels like an occasion, and something that's different from how the general population listens to music
Outstanding. So much of what you said echo's my experience directly.
Good for you.
I've got so much to learn about the whole vinyl thing. but really enjoying my trip so far.
By the way...totally agree on the Pink Floyd example of album timing... Those are albums meant to be played through...
I've got Styx 'The Grand Illusion' spinning as we 'speak,' and I have to say...it is just...righteous...
Interesting story about the Wall and what it started out being about:
Go to about 10:40 into that video - you'll see Gilmour talking about how people were going to their shows just for the party - no clue. Then Waters talks about spitting on some kid at Olympic Stadium that was trying to climb up on the stage and how that was the genesis of building a Wall between him and the audience.
Another interesting thing about the Wall - the movie - is at 37:50 in the vid link above, where Parks mentions looking for a lead actor and how Geldoff (who hated Pink Floyd) was asked by his manager in a cab about doing it. Geldoff gives a buncha "F... Pink Floyd" not realizing that the cab they hailed was being driven by Waters' brother...
Last edited:
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Have you guys tried any 45 RPM LPs yet (i.e 2 x 45 12" LPs for a single 33 1/3 LP)?
I've got a dozen or so, and they're impressive for pushing the limits of what vinyl can do. They sound a bit closer to 15 IPS RTR, to me.
Zog
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2019
- Messages
- 255
- Likes
- 290
Yeah I have a few too. In theory it seems a fab idea - more resolution? The one with Fever (Elvis) is remarkable. A dealer brought round that LP to demo and it was eye-popping. Of all the CDs, hi-res, DSD, I have this is the absolute best sound I can produce.
My 45 RPM 12 inch singles never trumped RBCDs for me. 33 RPM LPs would be inferior. 45 rpm LPs require shorter flip-over time. Even my MFSL LPs were contrived.
It is not, obviously, about the accurate fidelity or convenience that digital can deliver. No doubt there is an emotional factor involved. Good luck in making sense of what a range of individuals feel and then interpret those feelings re meaning. It is similar to the statement "that I can't describe pornography but I know what it is when I see it". Personal opinion writ large.
It is not, obviously, about the accurate fidelity or convenience that digital can deliver. No doubt there is an emotional factor involved. Good luck in making sense of what a range of individuals feel and then interpret those feelings re meaning. It is similar to the statement "that I can't describe pornography but I know what it is when I see it". Personal opinion writ large.
Last edited:
The love of vinyl strikes me as somewhat analogous to horse riding, for over a hundred years it has been clear that the horse has been a poor choice for mobility but some people still like riding a horse and horse lovers are happy to sink $$$$$$$$$$$$'s into their passion. Vinyl is clearly technically inferior but if people like the mechanical nature of analogue, the presence of some turntables, the fact that it needs a lot of tinkering to get the best out of it I do get that. In fact I tend to believe one of the reasons there is so much snake oil in high end audio these days is that people wanted to keep playing with their systems in the way they once did with analogue but which was unnecessary in the digital era and obviously suppliers and shops saw an opportunity to exploit that desire by coming out with all sorts of idiotic digital tweaks and other snake oil.
The bit I do find odd though is the argument that it makes people sit through an LP and listen to it properly. To me that is basically saying people either lack self discipline or that the music isn't that good if you need to be coerced into having to sit through it by making it inconvenient to do otherwise. I have no difficulty sitting through Celibididache's Bruckner 8th (the 106 minute one with the Munich PO...) without drifting off, I think if you are really passionate and love music then you don't need to be forced to sit through it.
The bit I do find odd though is the argument that it makes people sit through an LP and listen to it properly. To me that is basically saying people either lack self discipline or that the music isn't that good if you need to be coerced into having to sit through it by making it inconvenient to do otherwise. I have no difficulty sitting through Celibididache's Bruckner 8th (the 106 minute one with the Munich PO...) without drifting off, I think if you are really passionate and love music then you don't need to be forced to sit through it.
Ah-ah, you are obviously very young.
That was the joy of listening to music for me until I was in my late 30s for reading the artwork and early 50s before computer interference cropped up.
I don't stream music, or track hop, so I am used to hearing albums as the artist(s) intended, it is odd for me to realise this is a new thing for you!
Nothing involving a computer when listening to music appeals now, even though I was an early adopter. I have gone back mainly to CDs with a few LPs when the music I want to listen to next happens to be on one.
Excuse me for not finding the rigmarole of playing a record appealing, it was a chore for me for 30 years!
Although like you I listen to LPs when what I feel like playing happens to be on LP, I have ripped all my CDs to a hard-drive and play them on my Squeezebox. Whilst I do mostly play an album all the way through, I do often use the 'Random' function for my Rock/Pop/Folk/Blues genres as it brings up all sort of stuff I had forgotten I had. More often than not, I stop at a particular track and then play the whole album.
I get little extra pleasure playing a whole CD when it's available so conveniently on the Squeezebox, (also used to play the BBC Proms and a few superb Internet radio stations). Playing LPs is different insofar as there's no practical alternative to playing it on my turntables (I really can't be faffed to record my LPs onto digital, edit them, tag then etc etc etc. I just play them as they are).
In the past couple of years I've increasingly tried to buy newly released CDs as downloads as firstly, I would just rip the physical CD anyway, and secondly, I long since ran out of storage space for all the CDs I already have. I still buy 5 or 6 physical CDs a month used, so anything I can do to reduce my storage problem is worth doing.
With advancing years, I'm increasingly conscious that eventually my heirs will have to dispose of a large CD and LP collection, but that's the price they'll have to pay to inherit!
S
