Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[Wombat]

I just picked up a mini-collection of about 300 albums, which has quite few by Chick Corea. I put one on the other day, and I have to say... Dude could play. I had heard of him, but don't think I ever gave a serious listen. I will be listening more.

Yes but nothing to do with LPs. The guy could just play.

 

[anmpr1]

The reaso

I just picked up a mini-collection of about 300 albums, which has quite few by Chick Corea. I put one on the other day, and I have to say... Dude could play. I had heard of him, but don't think I ever gave a serious listen. I will be listening more.

Corea began lyrically, but progressed to more 'modern' stuff--where he'd take a recognizable tune and make it unrecognizable. His mid '60s sessions with Stan Getz are definitely worth checking out. Then a sort of 'fusion' thing with Return to Forever, along with a Brazilian influenced vibe (Flora Purim, and some later sets with Eliane Elias). The GRP releases have good sound, both acoustic and amplified. I don't know anything about him other than his music, but he always smiled in photos, and came across as a personable type. Music was generally upbeat and happy.

 

[Thomas_A]

Well, all one has to do is look at the number of self-assuring posts re an inferior technology.

I have some 'quality' turntables and see them for what they are - inferior reproducing machines of a past era, further limited by the shortcomings of the vinyl media.

I can see that they play a role in nostalgic proclivity. Let's keep it at that level.

Due to the scope of the forum one could IMO be focused on more measurements regardless the fact that the media is inferior to digital. There is much more mesurable differences to find especially for tonearm-cartridge-preamp issues as well as ADCs and software for realtime declickiing and denoising. At least this could be helpful to get higher fidelity.

 

[Zog]

Well, all one has to do is look at the number of self-assuring posts re an inferior technology.

I have some 'quality' turntables and see them for what they are - inferior reproducing machines of a past era, further limited by the shortcomings of the vinyl media.

I can see that they play a role in nostalgic proclivity. Let's keep it at that level.

No Wombat, not good enough. You have claimed there is some - lots actually - of vinyl insecurity. Yet you cannot cite an example. That is not a good look. Your offer of "Lets keep it at that level (sic)" is not accepted.

 

[watchnerd]

Corea began lyrically, but progressed to more 'modern' stuff--where he'd take a recognizable tune and make it unrecognizable. His mid '60s sessions with Stan Getz are definitely worth checking out. Then a sort of 'fusion' thing with Return to Forever, along with a Brazilian influenced vibe (Flora Purim, and some later sets with Eliane Elias). The GRP releases have good sound, both acoustic and amplified. I don't know anything about him other than his music, but he always smiled in photos, and came across as a personable type. Music was generally upbeat and happy.

I've seen Chick Corea live 4 times, from settings varied from a quintet to vibes with Gary Burton to leading a McCoy Tyner tribute concert with the SF Symphony.

 

[watchnerd]

Due to the scope of the forum one could IMO be focused on more measurements regardless the fact that the media is inferior to digital. There is much more mesurable differences to find especially for tonearm-cartridge-preamp issues as well as ADCs and software for realtime declickiing and denoising. At least this could be helpful to get higher fidelity.

I keep trying to get Amir to test cartridges. He claims to at least have some test records now.

 

[MattHooper]

Nearly 900 posts. Sheesh.

Buy a turntable and use it. Upgrade if you will. Enjoy it or not. Everything has pretty well been said in this thread. Lots of vinyl insecurity self assurance apparent.

Alternatively, there is facile pop-psychoanalyzing and condescension apparent in some posts.

Some members enjoy owning a turntable and playing vinyl - along with also owning and enjoying digital sources. This is the perfect thread in which to talk about it given enthusiasim for the format is somewhat more rare in this forum, and most don't want tons of threads dedicated to turntables. That being the case like many such specialized threads in many forums, talk here among turntable owners is likely to be ongoing. Should other ASR members abandon the thread because you don't share this interest and find it boring?

It is technically inferior to digital players

Shock! Vinyl is technically inferior???

Well I'm glad you decided to add some new information to the thread. ;-)

but if it moves you, so be it. That's OK.

Thank you for your completely non-condescending blessings.

Well, all one has to do is look at the number of self-assuring posts re an inferior technology.

That is a very strange form of criticism given the context.

You have claimed that this thread contains a lot of insecurity from people who own turntables and enjoy vinyl.

I can't even think of what you could mean by "insecurity." Do you think turntable owners here don't own or can't afford the more advanced digital sources and must justify their meager turntables out of envy? Obviously that can't be the case; we all have good digital sources. So what are we "insecure" about? Does the mere fact we dare describe why we enjoy turntables/vinyl, and what aspects of the sound or experience appeals to us, amount to "insecurity?" That would be a frivolously low bar - that implies ANY justification for why you like anything is just an expression of "insecurity." This is where you land with facile pop psychology. I like my digital sources and can explain why. But this thread is asking why I also like my turntable. So I explain why.

Did you notice that you have wandered in to a thread explicitly asking people who use turntables "what is the appeal?" The very nature of the thread is one of giving justifications, explaining why some of us still use a turntable and/or enjoy listening to vinyl.

Everyone here has acknowledged the technical limitations of vinyl/turntables vs digital sources.

If someone has been making technically unsound claims about vinyl in this thread, please by all means correct them. But if you are simply bothered by the fact any of us enjoy using a turntable and even...gasp!...can very much enjoy the sound as well!....then maybe your mood is better served by avoiding it?

I have some 'quality' turntables and see them for what they are - inferior reproducing machines of a past era, further limited by the shortcomings of the vinyl media.

I can see that they play a role in nostalgic proclivity. Let's keep it at that level.

No, sorry, the fact you own some turntables doesn't mean you dictate the reasons everyone else should have for owning a turntable and liking vinyl.

This thread is about actually UNDERSTANDING the various reasons people here have for owning a turntable/collecting records, not dictating those reasons to them. People are different. My interest in records is apparently greater than yours, and my reasons for what I enjoy about vinyl go beyond your reasons. Reducing it as you wish to merely to "nostalgic proclivity" may be accurate in your personal example, but it is inaccurate in regards to mine and some others.

If discussion of the goofy technology of turntables and the sonic consequences is uninteresting, one can avail oneself of plenty of threads measuring inaudible differences in DACs. ;-)

 

[Zog]

I keep trying to get Amir to test cartridges. He claims to at least have some test records now.

My view is that cartridges, being transducers, are important.

 

[Zerimas]

Corea began lyrically, but progressed to more 'modern' stuff--where he'd take a recognizable tune and make it unrecognizable. His mid '60s sessions with Stan Getz are definitely worth checking out. Then a sort of 'fusion' thing with Return to Forever, along with a Brazilian influenced vibe (Flora Purim, and some later sets with Eliane Elias). The GRP releases have good sound, both acoustic and amplified. I don't know anything about him other than his music, but he always smiled in photos, and came across as a personable type. Music was generally upbeat and happy.

When I took guitar lessons many years ago the guy who taught me said that the Chick Corea Elektric Band was a huge influence of his. I mean Chick Corea doesn't play the guitar, but the band did have an electric guitar in it. For some reason I've never gotten around to listening to them.

I don't know how "modern" the album is in comparison to the rest of his work, but I thought it was pretty cool. I mean, you'd have a heck of time whistling it while walking down the street, but it still sounds cool (to me at least). I play guitar (badly) so I think part of the appeal is that I also appreciate the level of technical skill it must take to play that stuff. Lots of guitarists look down on that sort of thing though. Guitarists will often say "so-and-so plays too fast", "so-and-so doesn't have any feeling (unlike Mr. something-or-other who plays slowly)".

 

[Frank Dernie]

Out of interest which 4 are they? And how would you describe the differences.

Goldmund Reference with T3f arm, B&O 8002, EMT 938 (I think that is the one) Roksan Xerxes with Rega arm.
Biggest differences in bass and cartridge sound, Cartridges make a big difference IMO.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Lissajous mode? When we saw tracking issues they'd manifest as a curl or change to the diagonal line... We'd have to use a high pass to get rid of the LF modulation caused by the table and resonance. That and most systems had so many other issues that it was difficult to discern tracking problems from things like poor compliance, bad suspensions, crap bearings etc... I always would check cantilever deflection to see if it appeared to struggle across the test records. Typically, the blank disc got me in the ballpark. We'd then use an HP 334A with a custom made 1kHz test record (7cm/sec if I recall) that we had made by a local pressing plant, but it was tough to set the notch perfectly depending on the wow of the UUT. The variance of the fundamental would make the meter bounce a bit so it was hard to get an absolute measurement.

But from my 10 years of experience of setting up some really expensive (and not necessarily good) to BIC belt drives at opus one, the blank disc got me close. We were the warranty station for Dual - god, I can't remember how many of those I fixed. We dealt with Thorens, etc... Also did a lot of broadcast engineering for stations in Pgh; and having tonearms skip due to poor tracking was not tolerated. Again the blank disc method seemed to work just fine for that.

You were lucky then.
The point of the stylus touches a blank disc, the flanks touch a cut disc, so the likelihood of the friction being the same for both is slim, and would depend on the maker’s idea of a point radius. The friction varies with modulation level so there can never be a “correct” bias anyway just better than none!
Looking at cantilever deflection from the front while playing shows if you are out and is probably the best method of all!
Cartridge magnetic circuits are, according to a friend who analyses thi s sort of thing, pretty non-linear so getting the magnet and coils aligned as best as possible is probably important.

 

[Thomas_A]

Goldmund Reference with T3f arm, B&O 8002, EMT 938 (I think that is the one) Roksan Xerxes with Rega arm.
Biggest differences in bass and cartridge sound, Cartridges make a big difference IMO.

Speed is also quite easy to detect. I have no problem identifying a typical REGA.

 

[Ceburaska]

Goldmund Reference with T3f arm, B&O 8002, EMT 938 (I think that is the one) Roksan Xerxes with Rega arm.
Biggest differences in bass and cartridge sound, Cartridges make a big difference IMO.

The Goldmund and B&O cover the direct drive and linear tracking bases. The EMT ticks the pro audio box. So can I ask why the Roksan? Is it like my LP12, a long ago purchase that I haven’t quite got round to selling?

 

[Ceburaska]

Goldmund Reference with T3f arm, B&O 8002, EMT 938 (I think that is the one) Roksan Xerxes with Rega arm.
Biggest differences in bass and cartridge sound, Cartridges make a big difference IMO.

Obvious follow up question, what are your cartridges?
Are all these going into your Devialet’s phono?

 

[Soniclife]

Goldmund Reference with T3f arm, B&O 8002, EMT 938 (I think that is the one) Roksan Xerxes with Rega arm.
Biggest differences in bass and cartridge sound, Cartridges make a big difference IMO.

The first 3 of those I know nothing about, but I used to own an Xerxes, I prefer it to the other popular UK choices at the time.

Completely agree about carts.

 

[Soniclife]

Hey, guys, read the OP and consider why you are using this thread to discuss your expensive tastes and fine equipment and tweaking skills when the OP asked " Can you help me understand why you like listening to records better than HQ streaming" - not playing with the gear.

Read the OPs response several pages back where he said he had got what the info he wanted and thanked people for the input. After that thread drift, which is always fine to an extent becomes very acceptable.

 

[Bigman80]

New to the forum so be gentle! lol

I have read a lot of this thread and i don't think anyone has touched on the accessibility of Vinyl and Analogue replay.

What i mean by that:

I adore vinyl and the sound i get from it but i also love the fact i can tweak the system and try various bits out, like cartridges, tonearms, platter mats and the like. It adds to the experience and because all that is usually required is a rudimentary tool kit and a basic understanding of how to align a cartridge correctly, it means simpletons like me can "tweak" till our heart's content.

Digital completely isolates that part of the hobby from me. I don't have the skills or knowledge to understand digital on that level and there is something quite throwaway about the speed at which digital progresses. Analogue sources like vinyl and valves aren't going to suddenly develop and become out of date, any more than they are anyway lol. Vinyl is a safe investment too because of this.

Vinyl is a passion for me and yes, when a medium you are relying on may not even be concentric, it makes it hard to argue against all the "accuracy" arguments but in my experience, i find music far more of an immersive experience on vinyl than via digital, although that gap is rapidly closing all the time. I also acknowledge and can hear the difference in signal quality during replay and only a madman would suggest anything other than digital as the winner but i have said for a long time, distortion *can* be a good thing. Take the popularity of valve amplifiers as an example.

I have a decent vinyl front end and like most people, i would suggest buying a few records, a modest turntable set up and just seeing how it fits. It's not for everyone and its bloody expensive, but the enjoyment i have gotten from the journey and the friends i have made on the way means i can only recommend it.

Digital will one day surpass vinyl on every aspect of replay, but it hasn't here, just yet.

 

[Wombat]

New to the forum so be gentle! lol

I have read a lot of this thread and i don't think anyone has touched on the accessibility of Vinyl and Analogue replay.

What i mean by that:

I adore vinyl and the sound i get from it but i also love the fact i can tweak the system and try various bits out, like cartridges, tonearms, platter mats and the like. It adds to the experience and because all that is usually required is a rudimentary tool kit and a basic understanding of how to align a cartridge correctly, it means simpletons like me can "tweak" till our heart's content.

Digital completely isolates that part of the hobby from me. I don't have the skills or knowledge to understand digital on that level and there is something quite throwaway about the speed at which digital progresses. Analogue sources like vinyl and valves aren't going to suddenly develop and become out of date, any more than they are anyway lol. Vinyl is a safe investment too because of this.

Vinyl is a passion for me and yes, when a medium you are relying on may not even be concentric, it makes it hard to argue against all the "accuracy" arguments but in my experience, i find music far more of an immersive experience on vinyl than via digital, although that gap is rapidly closing all the time. I also acknowledge and can hear the difference in signal quality during replay and only a madman would suggest anything other than digital as the winner but i have said for a long time, distortion *can* be a good thing. Take the popularity of valve amplifiers as an example.

I have a decent vinyl front end and like most people, i would suggest buying a few records, a modest turntable set up and just seeing how it fits. It's not for everyone and its bloody expensive, but the enjoyment i have gotten from the journey and the friends i have made on the way means i can only recommend it.

Digital will one day surpass vinyl on every aspect of replay, but it hasn't here, just yet.

I think that has been said in the thread, already. It is a long thread so maybe hard to remember all of the content.

I think you have a good attitude to the topic and am pleased that you enjoy.

 

[Bigman80]

I think that has been said in the thread, already. It is a long thread so maybe hard to remember all of the content.

I think you have a good attitude to the topic and am pleased that you enjoy.

Apologies then, it was very long lol

 

[Wombat]

Apologies then, it was very long lol

Too long.

Don't apologise.