Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[LuckyLuke575]

Have you guys tried any 45 RPM LPs yet (i.e 2 x 45 12" LPs for a single 33 1/3 LP)?

I've got a dozen or so, and they're impressive for pushing the limits of what vinyl can do. They sound a bit closer to 15 IPS RTR, to me.

No, I've never actually heard of 45 RPM LPs. I don;t even have any 45 RPM LPs right now lol I suppose the higher speed results in better quality? Like on a tape where more of it going across the tape head creates higher resolution. So does that mean that a 45 RPM single would sound better than an LP?

 

[LuckyLuke575]

Interesting story about the Wall and what it started out being about:

Go to about 10:40 into that video - you'll see Gilmour talking about how people were going to their shows just for the party - no clue. Then Waters talks about spitting on some kid at Olympic Stadium that was trying to climb up on the stage and how that was the genesis of building a Wall between him and the audience.

Another interesting thing about the Wall - the movie - is at 37:50 in the vid link above, where Parks mentions looking for a lead actor and how Geldoff (who hated Pink Floyd) was asked by his manager in a cab about doing it. Geldoff gives a buncha "F... Pink Floyd" not realizing that the cab they hailed was being driven by Waters' brother...

This looks very interesting. As a Pink Floyd fan, I'll definitely give it a watch, once I've finished listening to The Division Bell record that I bought today

 

[LuckyLuke575]

Ah-ah, you are obviously very young.
I have gone back mainly to CDs with a few LPs when the music I want to listen to next happens to be on one.
Excuse me for not finding the rigmarole of playing a record appealing, it was a chore for me for 30 years!

It's an interesting observation, because I feel the same about CDs from my younger days

Having the jewel cases needing to be stored in a special rack, then having those binders to carry CDs around and play them in a car, having to clean CDs with a spray, then when they would get scratched they wouldn't play at all after a certain point. There was no artifact value for me, it was just a piece of plastic, and when it goes into the player's tray it disappears. And when Mp3s hit, it was just a means to being able to rip the music onto iTunes to play on an iPod (at 128 kbps; that was the original sin / crime ). I had a whole collection of original store bought CDs, and I don't even know what happened to them lol I think CDs are probably the best physical music format, given that they're digital, and reproduce great sound quality.

I see some other comments talking about an electronic music library; that was the thing I hated the most; having to sit for hours to rip CDs and get the file info for every track right, then running out of disk space on the computer, and having the playback limited to the computer (although I did play around with an early virtual server program that allowed the music and movies to be streamed to a PS3). And the ripping in those days was always to Mp3 via iTunes (at least that's how everyone I knew did it). I still have an old laptop with all my digital music, and I never listen to that library.

I wouldn't give up my TIDAL streaming service for anything. While there are pros and cons for different people, it represents the ultimate evolution of music delivery technology for me. But having a turntable and limited record / vinyl collection is a nice addition that brings an enjoyable experience.

 

[watchnerd]

No, I've never actually heard of 45 RPM LPs. I don;t even have any 45 RPM LPs right now lol I suppose the higher speed results in better quality? Like on a tape where more of it going across the tape head creates higher resolution. So does that mean that a 45 RPM single would sound better than an LP?

Groove velocity is certainly a fairly large part of it, but it's also related to the ability to adjust the groove spacing:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...5-rpm-12-lp-explanation-by-kevin-gray.132280/

 

[MattHooper]

I don't enjoy interacting physically with CDs...those damned jewel cases! They don't feel nice in the hand, and they always feel on the edge of snapping (which they so often do. The amount of broken jewel cases I had...especially ones that dared try to contain more than on CD!)

 

[MattHooper]

So I can report back on my previous comments and plans; I completed my turntable / integrated amp setup this week. I've been listening to my records every night, and I'm loving the experience!

For context, I'm a guy that grew up listening to CD's and then Mp3s (I had an iPod Mini in high school). My father had a record player that I would play around with, but he didn't have any 'cool' music that I could listen to, so I didn't really use it. My reason for buying a turntable now is to be able to own and play my favorite records that I've discovered and been listening to via a TIDAL > DX3 Pro > HD 650 setup since the beginning of the year. I've also been wanting to own a real Hifi set up with speakers, so buying the turntable and Hi-fi setup kind of coincided.

I'm still totally into digital music for use on the go or in the office (I have a separate DAC/AMP/heaphone setup there). I think having digital / streaming music is totally complementary to owning vinyl records, because it let's me discover music and get to listen to a wide range of artists and albums so when I do buy a physical record I already know that I like it (kind of strikes me as a dream scenario for buying music compared to my younger days of standing at a counter trying to get a store clerk to put a CD into the test system for me to hear). Ok, but enough of that, lets move to the vinyl aspect.

Equipment (all bought used): Dual 505-4 turntable with AT 95E cartridge, Sony F-470 integrated amp, Mission 780 speakers, and using my HD 650 headphones that I had from before (plus all the paraphernalia to make the contraption work as can be seen in the pic lol)

Some observations on the appeal of using the turntable (as per the original topic of the thread) that I can share from my experience are as follows:

• It's interesting to learn how the record player works, how to set it up properly, seeing what to consider when using it
• I enjoy owning the quality, well made audio equipment that goes along with playing vinyl records
• The imperfect sound has character
• The music sounds warmer, more alive and deeper; acoustic and vocal music (such as early Bob Dylan records) sound excellent
• I enjoy seeing the record turning while the music plays
• There are no software, audio / driver settings, or internet connectivity issues that can affect playback
• I can see the whole record cover artwork while the record plays
• Playing the record involves a deliberate preparation process
• I appreciate listening to the music much more
• I listen to a smaller range of music that I really enjoy
• The mastering, song order, and editing of the vinyl records is sometimes different from the same record in TIDAL (The Who, Live in Leeds is a big example)
• The music seems to end too soon (in a good way)
• I can see the progress of the stylus across the record
• Songs at the end of a side actually sound like they're closing a chapter, or leading to an intermission (especially the Pink Floyd albums)
• I enjoy the collectability of vinyl records and pride of ownership from having original versions my my favorite records (rock n roll, folk etc.)
• Listening to music from vinyl records feels like an occasion, and something that's different from how the general population listens to music

View attachment 31908

Seconded. Well put! Enjoy!

 

[MattHooper]

The bit I do find odd though is the argument that it makes people sit through an LP and listen to it properly. To me that is basically saying people either lack self discipline

Ha. That reminds me my perpetually skinny friend who never has to think about what he eats. He wonders why the heck overweight people eat 'too much.' Why don't they just have the discipline to only eat the amount of food to stay slim, like he does (naturally)?

I suppose you may want to put me in to the category of the undisciplined. I do find I sit longer listening to my vinyl albums without wanting to change songs.

I have no difficulty sitting through Celibididache's Bruckner 8th (the 106 minute one with the Munich PO...) without drifting off, I think if you are really passionate and love music then you don't need to be forced to sit through it.

That simple equation may describe your relationship to listening to music, but I don't think it's that simple for everyone else. My son is passionate about his music, but he generally wouldn't want to have to sit down to listen to it. He wants to be able to do other things while listening, hence lots of ear-bud use.

I'm extremely passionate about music and for many decades when I decide to sit in front of my playback system I usually stay there for long periods of time, often 1 hour, sometimes 5 hours! But when I have the effortless control of my digital source, controlled from my ipad, it changes the way I listen. I love exploring my collection, and exploring and discovering music on Tidal, saving lots of favorites. But that's the problem, I get in to this explore, explore, explore mode where I just keep sampling the next thing. It's not that the piece I'm listening to isn't great and I'm not enjoying it. It's that there is SO MUCH at my finger tips, it's hard not to keep exploring. It's sort of like the tyranny of playlist-making, where you can simply skip to individual songs on albums, so you are constantly aware of looking to "winnow the best song from the rest" rather than sitting and listening through what an artist has to say on the album. It's driven by a passion for hearing music, but it nonetheless ends up something like "music ADD."

If you are using a music server and don't have any such attention issues, I envy you. That's wonderful! But for me, for a variety of reasons, vinyl brought the focus back to my listening sessions. Whereas with my digital source once I've listened to a song I want to move on to whatever other song from someone else, listening to vinyl will usually get me through a whole album side and usually my next move isn't to find another song, but to flip the record over and listen to the rest of the album.

That said, the fact you've mentioned listening to classical music could be another divide here. I enjoy classical, though I'm more passionate about soundtracks. But much of the "music ADD" I'm talking about comes from browsing contemporary music, pop, electronica, jazz, etc. I'd think classical music lovers, by the nature of their interest and the musical medium, are used to and expect to be sitting listening to long pieces of music.

 

[Wombat]

I don't enjoy interacting physically with CDs...those damned jewel cases! They don't feel nice in the hand, and they always feel on the edge of snapping (which they so often do. The amount of broken jewel cases I had...especially ones that dared try to contain more than on CD!)

Particularly those issued this century. And they are so darn slippery when several are held together. Of course vinyl can easily slide out of those particularly slippery(frosty-looking anti-static) sleeves.

 

[MattHooper]

And they are so darn slippery when several are held at once. Of course vinyl can easily slide out of those particularly slippery(frosty-looking) sleeves.

Oh yeah! I have my own problems with vinyl, at least in terms of storage. I tend to like the "record store browsing" orientation, so with the covers facing me. I have a large book shelf that holds a lot of my collection and I have some stacks with the covers facing outward in to the room.
Well, that means, as I discovered early on, that unlike records oriented in the usual spine-out way in a bookcase where their movement has constraints on both sides, when oriented cover-outward there is nothing stopping the movement of the albums should they decide to start slipping from vertical.

They are stored in the room next to the one I'm in now.

It took a few times of hearing the heart-stopping sound of one, then two bumps of a record hitting the floor, followed by the "giant house of cards" sound of 50 albums sliding off the shelf on to the floor, to finally get me looking at solutions. I'm still struggling with a solution!

 

[anmpr1]

• The mastering, song order, and editing of the vinyl records is sometimes different from the same record in TIDAL (The Who, Live in Leeds is a big example)
• Songs at the end of a side actually sound like they're closing a chapter, or leading to an intermission (especially the Pink Floyd albums)

Some artists actually had a 'bit' about turning the record over, at the end of Side 1. I had a Michael Nesmith First National Band album. At the end of side one their was a music 'skit' where he said the band was going to 'take a break' but would be right back after you turn the record over.

As a teenager I had an album from San Francisco hippy/blues group, Moby Grape. One song told the listener to get up and change the turntable to 78 RPM. People could do that back then, because they were listening with Garrard/BSR/Dual changers that all had 78 as a speed option.

Typically, mono pop records had a different mix than just a summed stereo version. Some cuts were longer in mono, or sometimes the reverse.

For classical, LP was horrible. Trying to figure out where to put the end of side cut in Das Rheingold, etc. Even CD was not optimum for some classical recordings, due to the limited length.

As others have said, I also hated CDs due to form factor, and jewel cases. Last year I ripped all my CDs to flac, and now play them via a PC. Much better, IMO. I still play records, though. LOL

 

[Ceburaska]

No, I've never actually heard of 45 RPM LPs. I don;t even have any 45 RPM LPs right now lol I suppose the higher speed results in better quality? Like on a tape where more of it going across the tape head creates higher resolution. So does that mean that a 45 RPM single would sound better than an LP?

I’ve got a few 45rpm classical records by the French label Sarastro. They’re the best sounding records I’ve heard. Solo instrument or chamber music. Verité du clavecin single-handedly made me appreciate harpsichord.
Most of my records are classical (about two-thirds) including three box set versions of the Ring. I’m not fussed about changing sides. It’s far less irritating than listening to everyone cough and splutter in the breaks between movements at live performances. Or when streaming randomly cuts out due to poor internet or failure of gapless (I’m upgrading my ISP in a week so maybe this will disappear). And with fully automatic turntables, no needle wear if I don’t notice the side has ended.

 

[Ceburaska]

Ah-ah, you are obviously very young.
That was the joy of listening to music for me until I was in my late 30s for reading the artwork and early 50s before computer interference cropped up.
I don't stream music, or track hop, so I am used to hearing albums as the artist(s) intended, it is odd for me to realise this is a new thing for you!
Nothing involving a computer when listening to music appeals now, even though I was an early adopter. I have gone back mainly to CDs with a few LPs when the music I want to listen to next happens to be on one.
Excuse me for not finding the rigmarole of playing a record appealing, it was a chore for me for 30 years!

And another follow up, and going way off topic, what CD player(s) do you use?
I had a year of ignoring CD and just streaming or playing downloads. But, in a similar way to turntables, the sheer enjoyment of using my Sony 77ES has seduced me back to playing CDs. It’s still behind vinyl and streaming, but ahead of downloads now.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Groove velocity is certainly a fairly large part of it, but it's also related to the ability to adjust the groove spacing:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...5-rpm-12-lp-explanation-by-kevin-gray.132280/

The only gain is high frequency distortion because the wavelength of the grooves is longer. Similar to having a more sophisticated stylus profile.
Groove spacing is and has for decades been used to get more music on each side, initially using an analogue delay line then digital to alter the spiral pitch according to the modulation of the bit about to be cut.
I suspect the biggest gain in 45rpm releases is simply that they are higher quality mixes for SQ aficionados in the first place!

 

[watchnerd]

And with fully automatic turntables, no needle wear if I don’t notice the side has ended.

This seems to imply that the needle being left in the run-out groove causes excessive wear?

Is that actually true?

I've certainly left mine there for as long as 5-10 min.

 

[Frank Dernie]

And another follow up, and going way off topic, what CD player(s) do you use?
I had a year of ignoring CD and just streaming or playing downloads. But, in a similar way to turntables, the sheer enjoyment of using my Sony 77ES has seduced me back to playing CDs. It’s still behind vinyl and streaming, but ahead of downloads now.

I am using a Goldmund Mimesis 36+ transport which I have been using about 25 years. It used to feed a DAC, for the last few years it goes directly into a Devialet amp.
I never stopped listening to CDs, just needed to rip them to MP4 then ALAC for travelling, I was away several days a week until I retired.
The biggest pita with rips is, as a person who mainly listens to classical music, the standard tagging system makes it difficult to find a complete work and I can't be bothered to re-tag any more now I am not travelling.

I get mail shots from Amazon. I followed the link to one boxed set that looked interesting and the tracks in their listing had Symphony No and movement name but no composer! As much use as a chocolate teapot.
I have a subscription to Qobuz and use it to look for new music. I usually buy the CD rather than the download once I find something I like, then I don't have to have a computer/iPad on to listen.
Pop music is fine for streaming, that is what the original tagging standard was made for.

I hate the standard CD cases, everything about them is poorly designed one of the great design failures of all time.

 

[watchnerd]

I suspect the biggest gain in 45rpm releases is simply that they are higher quality mixes for SQ aficionados in the first place!

I suspect it's more than just the mix, because I have the same album, from the same common masterings (or at least as common as possible, given they made SACD, 33 RPM, and 45 RPM at the same time). The differences between 33 and 45 are most noticeable at the top end and low end. Midrange seems about the same.

 

[Frank Dernie]

This seems to imply that the needle being left in the run-out groove causes excessive wear?

Is that actually true?

I've certainly left mine there for as long as 5-10 min.

Not excessive, just unnecessary
The stylus will be wearing all the time it is in a groove. Maybe in the runout groove for a while it will also get hot which may be worse. I certainly always lift the arm immediately.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I suspect it's more than just the mix, because I have the same album, from the same common masterings (or at least as common as possible, given they made SACD, 33 RPM, and 45 RPM at the same time). The differences between 33 and 45 are most noticeable at the top end and low end. Midrange seems about the same.

I can't think of any technical reason for the bottom end to be better at 45. Top definitely.
Even if the original recording is the same it is very unlikely the mix will be the same for SACD and LP, and if optimising for the difference between 33 and 45 I would leave the treble a bit hotter since treble will be cleaner, particularly at the end of side.

 

[JJB70]

I never had any attachment to CD, no more than to vinyl or cassette tape. And since CD is just a carrier for data that can be stored in a memory chip or hard drive or streamed then once those other options matured it was always going to make physical discs somewhat obsolete. Indeed the engineers who developed the format understood this and CD has already gone well past its anticipated life. For all that I still buy CDs and rip them to FLAC as I find it comforting to know I still have a library of discs I can play using my various optical drives if necessary but at the same time having it all on a memory card in my tablet and DAP in full CD quality is just so convenient. I have bought a few DG sets which come with a high res blu ray disc included, with the exception of the quadrophonic and surround versions I think upsampled older recordings to be utterly pointless, however it is great to have everything on a single disc which I can play on my universal disc spinner if I do want to use the disc.
This may sound odd given that I spend time on a forum like this but to me the audio equipment is just a tool that I need to enjoy music. I am clearly interested in the hardware but I want something which enables me to enjoy music without having to invest time and effort faffing about with equipment. Digital sources offer full transparency and pain free usability. I can understand why some like tinkering with an analogue format and all the set up and tweaking that goes with it but the last thing I want at home is to start playing with stuff like that. Quite honestly when someone develops the technology to just beam music into our psyche, by-passing our ears completely I will be up for it.

 

[anmpr1]

I’ve got a few 45rpm classical records by the French label Sarastro. They’re the best sounding records I’ve heard.

Most of my records are classical (about two-thirds) including three box set versions of the Ring. I’m not fussed about changing sides. It’s far less irritating than listening to everyone cough and splutter in the breaks between movements at live performances.

Or when streaming randomly cuts out due to poor internet or failure...

1) I've a couple of 45 LPs. Variable quality. One, a Charlie Byrd acoustic combo recorded Direct to Disc (Crystal Clear label), white vinyl. Supposed to have used an all toob chain with no limiting, blah blah blah. You'd think that everything would add up to outstanding sonics, but it was average. Not nearly as good as the D to D stuff Doug Sax cut for Sheffield. Or some of the Umbrella releases from AT, all which played at thirty three and a third. So there is more than just record speed. Actually, I think half speed mastering was probably a good idea, from a quality standpoint. MFSL was doing that.

2) Or you could have the worst of both worlds. The 'live' version of Boulez's Bayreuth recording was done at a rehersal. But instead of taking that opportunity to get things wonderful, just having the singers sing, and orchestra play, you hear all the jumping around on the resonant floor. Annoying. Why they did that is a mystery to me. At least on record you didn't have to look at Patrice Chereau's garbage Eurotrash constumes. Which, by the way, are pretty tame now, considering what Bayreuth has become. The thing about the Ring is that there are so many ways the conductor/producer can muck it up, that a little coughing can be overlooked. And don't even get me started about that English Nat Opera/Goodall Ring. What a bad joke that was.

3) It is no worse than FM used to be. People would buy outrageously sophisticated SOA tuners (Marantz 10b, MR-78, Dick Sequerra's monster) and have to put up with garbage FM signals. I guess most were sold in NYC and Boston, where there were actually decent classical music stations. But you still had signal problems with FM, and the fact that your $11,000.00 (in today's inflato dollars) tuner was listening to a record played with a Stanton 500 pro radio cartridge. That, and you had to pray your neighbor didn't get into the '10-4 Good Buddy' CB fad, putting up a citizen's band signal generator next door to your house. No...I think digit streaming is probably the way to go. LOL