Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[sergeauckland]

At 99% you have better luck than I have. While I have very few used "unplayable" LP's I do have a fair number of "disappointments" which range from noise to wear/damage to a poor recording or poor pressing to begin with. I agree that a line contact will play most used records with less noise and distortion. Some of my favorite LP's are from the late1950's, especially mono recordings which can be surprisingly quiet. I used to pick them up cheap so didn't mind taking some "risk" but this weekend I came across an original mono Sarah Vaughan album from the late 1950's which looked a little sketchy and they wanted $35 for it which is too much for me. Maybe I am being too careful though... I see original Blue Note LP's like Cool Struttin' going for thousands of dollars.

Poor recordings I have plenty, whether on LP or CD. Some of them have even won Emmys! Have a look at the Robert Plant/Alison Krauss CD, clipped to buggery, yet still won plaudits. Ditto Rag 'n' Bone Man Human. I'm convinced that record reviewers / awards judges have cloth ears.

As to LP prices, I have a personal cut-off at £15 for an LP. More than that, I'll either buy the CD or use Spotify. The only rare exception is for Quadraphonic LPs, as that's the only way to have the SQ or QS version.

I buy LPs to play, not just to collect, so 'Rare' or 'collectors' prices don't interest me as I won't be selling them.

S.

 

[smazumder]

I'm new to this forum. And bumped into this thread. Enjoyed it thoroughly and learned a lot.

I have a variety of source components, so-called hi-fi/hi-end ones, including TT, DAC, Cassette Deck, and recently owned R2R. And I realize and acknowledge that I do have that 'emotional' bias towards Vinyls.

However, from an objective standpoint, my 2 cents is to extract the most out of the format (to make it sonically pleasent, engaging, enjoyable), the amount of money one has to spend (to get the right player) is cheaper for Vinyls compared to digital media. Only after spending 5-6 times more for a DAC compared to my TT, I now find thatthe digital format is close (sonically as pleasent as Vinyl) without losing those low-frequency details or cut-offs at high frequencies.

Most probably that is the reason today people have again started listening to Vinyls.

Again, my 2 cents only, just from the pespective of what sounds pleasent and engaging.

Regards,
Sourav

 

[Sal1950]

However, from an objective standpoint, my 2 cents is to extract the most out of the format (to make it sonically pleasent, engaging, enjoyable), the amount of money one has to spend (to get the right player) is cheaper for Vinyls compared to digital media. Only after spending 5-6 times more for a DAC compared to my TT, I now find thatthe digital format is close (sonically as pleasent as Vinyl) without losing those low-frequency details or cut-offs at high frequencies.

You have an awful lot to learn here about both mediums.

 

[Tom C]

I'm new to this forum. And bumped into this thread. Enjoyed it thoroughly and learned a lot.

I have a variety of source components, so-called hi-fi/hi-end ones, including TT, DAC, Cassette Deck, and recently owned R2R. And I realize and acknowledge that I do have that 'emotional' bias towards Vinyls.

However, from an objective standpoint, my 2 cents is to extract the most out of the format (to make it sonically pleasent, engaging, enjoyable), the amount of money one has to spend (to get the right player) is cheaper for Vinyls compared to digital media. Only after spending 5-6 times more for a DAC compared to my TT, I now find thatthe digital format is close (sonically as pleasent as Vinyl) without losing those low-frequency details or cut-offs at high frequencies.

Most probably that is the reason today people have again started listening to Vinyls.

Again, my 2 cents only, just from the pespective of what sounds pleasent and engaging.

Regards,
Sourav

My friend I have most excellent news for you. You can spend a small fraction of what you have, a relative pittance, and get the very best possible sound there is from digital. And you may likely be able to spend much less than you have for vinyl, and suffer zero loss in sound quality. Just look around on this site, ask questions, and be prepared to accept that what some others have told is an absolute lie, spoken only to separate you from your hard earned cash.

 

[jsrtheta]

My friend I have most excellent news for you. You can spend a small fraction of what you have, a relative pittance, and get the very best possible sound there is from digital. And you may likely be able to spend much less than you have for vinyl, and suffer zero loss in sound quality. Just look around on this site, ask questions, and be prepared to accept that what some others have told is an absolute lie, spoken only to separate you from your hard earned cash.

In fact, not only will he spend much less for digital, he will using a far more accurate medium than analog vinyl. Or tape. Or hell, a wire recorder, which is likely the next big "discovery" in analog.

In fact, did Fremer ever try wire recordings? He'd have been orgasmic. Or wax cylinders?

 

[smazumder]

My friend I have most excellent news for you. You can spend a small fraction of what you have, a relative pittance, and get the very best possible sound there is from digital. And you may likely be able to spend much less than you have for vinyl, and suffer zero loss in sound quality. Just look around on this site, ask questions, and be prepared to accept that what some others have told is an absolute lie, spoken only to separate you from your hard earned cash.

Ha ha ha. Thanks for the suggestion. Surely here to ask questions and learn more.

But the problem is enough money is already spent for both of my digital and vinyl gears. That cannot be reverted back now.

Regards,
Sourav

 

[restorer-john]

@smazumder Good for you. I'm glad you enjoy various source components, media and formats. There's a lot of fun to be had with different methods to enjoy music and contrary to the absolutist approach sadly broadcast by a noisy cohort of ASR denizens where it's "digital or nothing", I too enjoy everything from open reel decks to vinyl. Often vinyl will produce an emotional connection with the music that far exceeds the same content on CD.

Digital is cheap and easy in 2024. The other formats require time, effort, and often, considerable expense. But that can be half the fun.

 

[Killingbeans]

However, from an objective standpoint, my 2 cents is to extract the most out of the format (to make it sonically pleasent, engaging, enjoyable), the amount of money one has to spend (to get the right player) is cheaper for Vinyls compared to digital media. Only after spending 5-6 times more for a DAC compared to my TT, I now find thatthe digital format is close (sonically as pleasent as Vinyl) without losing those low-frequency details or cut-offs at high frequencies.

I've got the opposite experience. Back when I had a turntable, I had spent roughly 5 times as much on it as on my most expensive digital source.

To my ears that was enough to make the most annoying quirks of a turntable insignificant compared to the enjoyable ones.

If you want to emulate the limitations of a turntable when listening to a digital source, there's no need to spend tons of money on digital gear that's been gimped on purpose. There's lots of free or cheap DSP solutions that can mangle the signal in any way you find pleasing.

 

[LTig]

I've got the opposite experience. Back when I had a turntable, I had spent roughly 5 times as much on it as on my most expensive digital source.

Same here. The more I invested into my TT (Linn LP12, old Lingo, old Ekos, AT33ptg/II, Cambridge Audio Duo), the closer it's sound became to digital.

 

[SIY]

Often vinyl will produce an emotional connection with the music that far exceeds the same content on CD.

Yes, but not for sonic reasons (see the clever experiments done by Michael Uwins).

 

[Purité Audio]

That is an interesting article, thanks for posting.
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

There's a lot of fun to be had with different methods to enjoy music and contrary to the absolutist approach sadly broadcast by a noisy cohort of ASR denizens where it's "digital or nothing", I too enjoy everything from open reel decks to vinyl.

Hay John, I believe that is an unfair depiction of many of us here, "digital or nothing".
Yes, I personally feel that if your interest is achieving the SOTA in High Fidelity home music, that vinyl is
a huge waste of money, but that's just me. My only concern is making the facts on the abilities of the two
mediums understood, there are many voices out there telling them different. Then if you still chose to play
around with LP's, that's your business.

Often vinyl will produce an emotional connection with the music that far exceeds the same content on CD.

As will $5k power cords, because someone convinced them they would..
What else created that "emotional connection", a very subjective reaction?
Was it the LP delivering a more accurate, less distorted view of the recorded master?
Or is it simply a emotional subjective response to outside factors that have nothing to do with High Fidelity?

 

[Steven Holt]

Awww guys, let's face it : people who like turntables just like to get stoned and watch the record go round and round. I was in that lot for years.

 

[egellings]

Awww guys, let's face it : people who like turntables just like to get stoned and watch the record go round and round. I was in that lot for years.

I once did a few hits and listened to a song that must have lasted a half hour. After a while, I realized that I was listening to the lead out groove. Nice, steady if slow rhythm.

 

[MattHooper]

However, from an objective standpoint, my 2 cents is to extract the most out of the format (to make it sonically pleasent, engaging, enjoyable), the amount of money one has to spend (to get the right player) is cheaper for Vinyls compared to digital media. Only after spending 5-6 times more for a DAC compared to my TT, I now find thatthe digital format is close (sonically as pleasent as Vinyl) without losing those low-frequency details or cut-offs at high frequencies.

I’m quite enthusiastic about my turntable and playing records, so my intent isn’t to rain on your parade.

However, like others, I would emphasize that technically digital is far, far cheaper to get perfectly accurate sound (recorded signal), whereas you could spend $100,000 on a turntable and still not reliably reached digital accuracy. All the frequencies contained in a recording will be there with even a decent DAC. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to get the frequency extremes.

What you personally prefer might be another case. There could be a variety of reasons and influences for why you prefer the turntable. Do you think perhaps your cartridge is producing a certain frequency profile that you’ve dialled into your liking, so you were comparing to that when judging digital? There can be other reasons too.

I have an expensive turntable arm and cartridge that I’ve got sounding as best as I could. And it’s amazing.

But for me, when I compare the sound of records to a digital source, I can hear the Sonic advantages for digital almost every time. Even if I may prefer vinyl and some cases.

 

[smazumder]

@MattHooper and others, thanks for sharing your experience and point of view.

First and foremost, no argument that a digital system can reproduce most of the frequencies in a recording. Technically it is much superior t

But, come on, one doesn't have to listen to music just to make sure that all frequencies are present in the reproduction. I listen to my system to enjoy the music from my favorite albums, by my favorite artists. And to enjoy the music, I do need my system to convey the emotion. (BTW, I am not saying that there is anything wrong if someone primarily focuses on ensuring all frequencies are there or not in the reproduction while listening to music. It is one's choice and way of enjoying music).

However, in that regard, as @restorer-john said, in my experience (listening to digital systems starting 1988), I have also found that most of the time reproduction from a Vinyl system creates a better emotional connection compared to the reproduction of the same content by a digital system (at similar price range).

Surely with some exceptions though, especially with the new generation of music directly recorded using the digital system itself. P S Audio these days records new music directly using a digital system. I have tried both SACD (and for some cases hi-res digital downloads) and LP versions of those music. And surely the SACD/digital versions sounded better to me. But even a used but original LP of Bitches Brew sounds any day better to my ears than a cd/sacd/hi-res digital version of the same.

Regards,
Sourav

 

[SIY]

I have also found that most of the time reproduction from a Vinyl system creates a better emotional connection compared to the reproduction of the same content by a digital system (at similar price range).

Yes (for you), but that likely has nothing to do with the sound.

 

[MattHooper]

But, come on, one doesn't have to listen to music just to make sure that all frequencies are present in the reproduction. I listen to my system to enjoy the music from my favorite albums, by my favorite artists. And to enjoy the music, I do need my system to convey the emotion.

In my case, my turntable system is more expensive than my DAC. If we are speaking, pure sonics, I don’t find one gives me more emotional connection over the other. I never bought into the old file shibboleth that CD were “ less musical” then records. Most of my list from the 80s through two fairly recently has been on CDs and now including streaming. I had plenty of musical connection.

Now, sometimes I prefer a vinyl record over a digital presentation, sometimes the other way around. But I can get similar emotional connection to each in terms of just the sound.

That said, there are other factors that influence my experience. I find the various tactile properties of owning and playing records, and interacting with my turntable, which I find to be a beautiful object, and several other factors combine to make listening to a record often feel like a richer experience.

The ubiquitous nature and ease of digital music feels a bit more like a fast food experience, while playing records feels a bit more like sitting down to fine dining.

Again, not sonically. But experientially. For me.

 

[Sal1950]

However, in that regard, as @restorer-john said, in my experience (listening to digital systems starting 1988), I have also found that most of the time reproduction from a Vinyl system creates a better emotional connection compared to the reproduction of the same content by a digital system (at similar price range).

For me it is exactly the opposite.
When you combine all the noise, distortion, and other technical weaknesses of vinyl. Then along with the complete inconvenience of having my music interrupted every 15 minutes or so, then going thru the 5 minute ritual of LP handling, cleaning of LP, the needle, destaticing, positioning and lowering the tonearm, etc etc etc, all that destroys any "emotional" connection I may have started to make. Hell it's a wonder to even remember what you were listening to on that first side. LOL
Since the very first CD's I owned, the LP went on the scrap heap of history, along with the 3 minute per side 45s I played as a kid in the 1950s, and my familys mono shellac 78s.
I won't even mention the fact of being limited to 2 channels.

 

[EJ3]

then going thru the 5 minute ritual of LP handling, cleaning of LP, the needle, destaticing, positioning and lowering the tonearm, etc etc etc, all that destroys any "emotional" connection I may have started to make.

That ritual is something that I do only occasionally (& then put the fecords back into their anti-static sleeves), usually while I am listening to another format (CD, FM, Cassette, Reel to Reel, etc).
For the destat part, I have a separate destat specific tonearm carbon fiber brush thing connected to the ground. Takes bout a 1/4 of a second to implement.
So, for the most part, I do not need to do anything other than put the record on the spindle the destat tone arm on the lead in grove & hit play (both my SL-M3 Technics & my DUAL 1229 are full automatics). Every 25 minutes or so, I need to hit the head & get another adult libation, so stopping, flipping the LP is just part of that step, anyway.