Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[Soniclife]

After that it is mostly self affirmation. ~300 posts and continuing.

Is this your first day on the internet

There a plenty of threads I just don't read here because I'm not interested after a few pages, it's a good policy.

 

[Juhazi]

This is a nice website for vinyl addicts, old and young!
https://www.vinylengine.com/

 

[Soniclife]

there is something quite throwaway about the speed at which digital progresses

I don't agree with this, very good digital get's cheaper and cheaper, but if you bought good a few years ago it's still good today, there hasn't been any real progress beyond price that I can see.

 

[Wombat]

Is this your first day on the internet

There a plenty of threads I just don't read here because I'm not interested after a few pages, it's a good policy.

Tend to agree but garrulous threads often throw up something worthwhile. Being retired, I can probably waste my time on them more than others can.

 

[Bigman80]

I don't agree with this, very good digital get's cheaper and cheaper, but if you bought good a few years ago it's still good today, there hasn't been any real progress beyond price that I can see.

It has certainly slowed down and yes, China has definitely caused a rethink in the pricing structure of new digital gear.

 

[Frank Dernie]

New to the forum so be gentle! lol

I have read a lot of this thread and i don't think anyone has touched on the accessibility of Vinyl and Analogue replay.

What i mean by that:

I adore vinyl and the sound i get from it but i also love the fact i can tweak the system and try various bits out, like cartridges, tonearms, platter mats and the like. It adds to the experience and because all that is usually required is a rudimentary tool kit and a basic understanding of how to align a cartridge correctly, it means simpletons like me can "tweak" till our heart's content.

Digital completely isolates that part of the hobby from me. I don't have the skills or knowledge to understand digital on that level and there is something quite throwaway about the speed at which digital progresses. Analogue sources like vinyl and valves aren't going to suddenly develop and become out of date, any more than they are anyway lol. Vinyl is a safe investment too because of this.

Vinyl is a passion for me and yes, when a medium you are relying on may not even be concentric, it makes it hard to argue against all the "accuracy" arguments but in my experience, i find music far more of an immersive experience on vinyl than via digital, although that gap is rapidly closing all the time. I also acknowledge and can hear the difference in signal quality during replay and only a madman would suggest anything other than digital as the winner but i have said for a long time, distortion *can* be a good thing. Take the popularity of valve amplifiers as an example.

I have a decent vinyl front end and like most people, i would suggest buying a few records, a modest turntable set up and just seeing how it fits. It's not for everyone and its bloody expensive, but the enjoyment i have gotten from the journey and the friends i have made on the way means i can only recommend it.

Digital will one day surpass vinyl on every aspect of replay, but it hasn't here, just yet.

IME digital was audibly transparent 30 years ago on the sort of music I record. It is measurably better today, and much much cheaper but on actual music it hasn’t changed at all.
Analogue was never perfect IME but indeed it can be fun to dick about with. I have LPs which I prefer over the CD equivalent but not many.
Whether I listen to a CD or LP is dependant on what I want to listen to next, not any SQ consideration.
After 50 years of messing about with components and setup I have certainly had enough of record players as a hobby, in fact anything which means I have to mess around with equipment rather than listen to music is out as far as I am concerned and I haven’t done anything to my record player for the last 20 years apart from CLA and cartridge replacement for 20 years or so.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Obvious follow up question, what are your cartridges?
Are all these going into your Devialet’s phono?

Ortofon A90, Ortofon Jubilee, Decca Super Gold, B&O MMC4, Stanton moving coil, forget the model.
I don’t play about any more so most of my stuff is quite old now. I don’t see much advance in record player design in real engineering, rather than BS and styling for years.

 

[Soniclife]

I haven’t done anything to my record player for the last 20 years apart from CLA and cartridge replacement for 20 years or so.

Not even oil or belt changes?

I completely agree about being over playing with the kit when I want to listen to music, I want it to work and not be a a lot of faffing about, my Rega P9 is perfect for that, there is nothing to adjust beyond anti-skate and the cartridge, which was put on by a dealer I trust to know more about this than me.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The Goldmund and B&O cover the direct drive and linear tracking bases. The EMT ticks the pro audio box. So can I ask why the Roksan? Is it like my LP12, a long ago purchase that I haven’t quite got round to selling?

I loved the Roksan. Much better isolated than most at the frequencies where our ears are most sensitive but a bit less at bass frequencies so ab it of bass reverb added. Lovely. If I had more space it would be out more but I like keeping it with the transit bolts in place when not in use to avoid the dreaded sag. Cleverly designed from a vibration control perspective but not longevity since I suppose the designer didn’t expect creep in the top plate.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not even oil or belt changes?

I completely agree about being over playing with the kit when I want to listen to music, I want it to work and not be a a lot of faffing about, my Rega P9 is perfect for that, there is nothing to adjust beyond anti-skate and the cartridge, which was put on by a dealer I trust to know more about this than me.

CLA is clean, lubricate and adjust so yes to both.

 

[Soniclife]

CLA is clean, lubricate and adjust so yes to both.

Ah makes sense, I read it as Cartridge Level Adjustment.

I liked the Roksan sound for what sounds like the same reasons as you. Mine was suffering badly from plinth sag when I sold it after about 10 years, it could be adjusted around but sooner or later the motor was going to foul the outer platter, I don't know if they keep sagging or eventually reach stability.

 

[sergeauckland]

IME digital was audibly transparent 30 years ago on the sort of music I record. It is measurably better today, and much much cheaper but on actual music it hasn’t changed at all.
Analogue was never perfect IME but indeed it can be fun to dick about with. I have LPs which I prefer over the CD equivalent but not many.
Whether I listen to a CD or LP is dependant on what I want to listen to next, not any SQ consideration.
After 50 years of messing about with components and setup I have certainly had enough of record players as a hobby, in fact anything which means I have to mess around with equipment rather than listen to music is out as far as I am concerned and I haven’t done anything to my record player for the last 20 years apart from CLA and cartridge replacement for 20 years or so.

Much the same for me. I had a Garrard 401 alongside my EMT and AEG, but sold that a good few years ago. Since then, I use the EMT and AEG alternately, playing Side 1 on the AEG and Side 2 on the EMT. That way, they get wear evenly. They sound sufficiently similar that I'm not aware of which one's playing.

Haven't done anything to either one for years. The EMT has it's own cartridge, which needs no adjustments, the AEG is normally fitted with an AT33ML, and that's currently away for a retip by Expert Stylus, but I have previously occasionally changed it for a Shure V15V-SAS when the mood took me.

Like Frank, I play LPs for the musical content, these days mostly when I want to play Quadraphonic LPs or vintage Jazz.

S.

 

[Zog]

I adore vinyl and the sound i get from it but i also love the fact i can tweak the system and try various bits out, like cartridges, tonearms, platter mats and the like. It adds to the experience and because all that is usually required is a rudimentary tool kit and a basic understanding of how to align a cartridge correctly, it means simpletons like me can "tweak" till our heart's content.

I had lots of fun on the way with tweaks. I started off with a belt-drive TT, a Marantz. Then I swapped that for a Technics 1200, a Japanese Direct Drive. It was an instant improvement. I put on a Benz Ace cartridge and used the phono stage from my integrated amp. Good times with Abbey Road, Cold Fact, some Elvis and an Audiophile pressing of Beethoven's Seventh - recorded with vintage mics apparently. Then I got into improving the sound. I took the view that I would do all I could to ensure accurate speed and minimise vibrations. Here's the ride:

• Changed the feet. Isonoe are a company who make aftermarket feet for the Technics. In essence they are four little trampolines. Improvement clear.
• Sorbothane 'boots' to go under the Isonoe feet.
• Granite slab for sitting the TT to add some mass.
• Took out the power supply and replaced replaced it with a custom two box jobbie by Longdog Audio.
• Learned how to service the machine, clean the contacts, dismantle and clean the bearing.
• Replaced the bearing thrustpad with one made from Peek (a hard species of teflon).
• Replaced the mat with one made by Oyaide - it is butyl based and damps the platter.
• The aluminium platter has a rubber underlay. I stripped that out (a full weekend!) and poured epoxy into the space. Instead of ringing like a bell the platter is now inert. (Oyaide mat not really necessary anymore).
• I then damped the entire contraption with dynamat. 'Entire' as in all non-visible surfaces.
• New tonearm. This is quite a mission as one also needs a custom armboard. I chose Magna Audio to make an ebony armboard. I chose a Jelco tonearm as they have a good reputation and the design is consistent with the look of TT.
• Custom silver rewire and Ebony headshell. Custom tonearm wire - made by demure Greek virgins. Soft and lovely to the touch - the tonearm wire that is.
• Ebony record stabiliser.
• Wet cleaning machine for LPs.
• Cartridges - Benz Wood, Charisma Audio Ref1, Ikeda 9TT.
• Phono stage upgrades - Pro-ject (loser), Fosgate Signature (decent), Benedict Audio (excellent). Allnic 1500 (excellent).

There is an open secret of hi-fi performance in that the room is critical; the room / speaker / listener can be optimised. The secret of good vinyl replay is similar. Good setup. Table level - check, cartridge alignment - check, Azimuth - check, tracking force - check, VTA - check, final horizontal table check - check.

It may sound like a lot of work, and it was, and a lot of expense but this was all over several years. Bit by bit, rather than byte by byte.

There were a few mis-steps along the way. My first blunder was to buy an aftermarket bearing known as the Mike New bearing. Sure looked good, It was shiny and the hideous price guaranteed great performance! Right? No. Noooooooooo. I suspect it was a downgrade, but too close to call. Hi-Fi News mag did a review that showed inferior measurements. Another cock-up was putting on an Origin Live Encounter tonearm. Origin Live are big talkers. I had it for about a week and moved it on. The Jelco tonearm, and even the stock Technics tonearm were better. Then: every TT aficionado's nightmare: damaged cartridge. I broke the stylus off my Charisma cartridge. How I perpetrated this stroke of genius I do not know. Ouch.

The adventure continues: for my business I did a radio series where I talked about some music and was allowed to mention 'in passing' my profession and my phone number. I also talked about the vinyl revival and that I had a TT in my office - listeners were welcome to bring in a LP. Yes, I bought a second SL1200! and used spare parts to provide an office system. I did have to buy some speakers but I got Spendor D1s that are small and look really cool. I keep LPs that have great cover art in the office and it is a fully functioning system. You wanna hear the upgrades there? Wags tail! No? Sad face. Ok I will leave it there with the hope that this shows some of the attraction of vinyl.

 

[watchnerd]

Looking at cantilever deflection from the front while playing shows if you are out and is probably the best method of all!

At one point in the record are you looking? Beginning, middle, or end?

 

[watchnerd]

CLA is clean, lubricate and adjust so yes to both.

Changed the feet. Isonoe are a company who make aftermarket feet for the Technics. In essence they are four little trampolines. Improvement clear.

• Sorbothane 'boots' to go under the Isonoe feet.
• Granite slab for sitting the TT to add some mass.
• Took out the power supply and replaced replaced it with a custom two box jobbie by Longdog Audio.
• Learned how to service the machine, clean the contacts, dismantle and clean the bearing.
• Replaced the bearing thrustpad with one made from Peek (a hard species of teflon).
• Replaced the mat with one made by Oyaide - it is butyl based and damps the platter.
• The aluminium platter has a rubber underlay. I stripped that out (a full weekend!) and poured epoxy into the space. Instead of ringing like a bell the platter is now inert. (Oyaide mat not really necessary anymore).
• I then damped the entire contraption with dynamat. 'Entire' as in all non-visible surfaces.
• New tonearm. This is quite a mission as one also needs a custom armboard. I chose Magna Audio to make an ebony armboard. I chose a Jelco tonearm as they have a good reputation and the design is consistent with the look of TT.
• Custom silver rewire and Ebony headshell. Custom tonearm wire - made by demure Greek virgins. Soft and lovely to the touch - the tonearm wire that is.
• Ebony record stabiliser.
• Wet cleaning machine for LPs.
• Cartridges - Benz Wood, Charisma Audio Ref1, Ikeda 9TT.
• Phono stage upgrades - Pro-ject (loser), Fosgate Signature (decent), Benedict Audio (excellent). Allnic 1500 (excellent).

I got super tweaky with my vintage 1980s Michell Gyro SE (MK II), of which I'm not the original owner, and replaced the original metal ball bearings in the main bearing and strut tower / springs with modern ceramic type ones.

Progress!

Maybe...probably doesn't make a damn bit of difference, but it cost like $3.

 

[sergeauckland]

@Zog

Have you checked the frequency of the generator that sets the speed? I've serviced two SL1200s, and in both cases the speed was off by a small but appreciable amount. A quick reset of the generator pot, and all was well, but you need either a frequency meter or a lot of trial and error with a strobe disc to get it right. Unfortunately, the 1210's strobe comes off the same generator as the motor, so it'll always show the right speed regardless of the real speed of the motor.

S.

 

[watchnerd]

Unfortunately, the 1210's strobe comes off the same generator as the motor, so it'll always show the right speed regardless of the real speed of the motor.

Seriously?

I've never heard that before, but hilarious design flaw, if correct.

 

[sergeauckland]

Seriously?

I've never heard that before, but hilarious design flaw, if correct.

That's what it looks like from the circuit diagram, but I could be wrong. For the original application, i.e. disco work, I think it's only important to know whether the speed is nominal or has been changed by the speed change fader, so probably good enough.

I should perhaps have made it more clear that the strobe does show a speed change when the speed change fader is moved, or if the turntable is slowed manually, it just doesn't show a speed change when the generator frequency is changed, which changes the nominal motor speed with the fader at zero.

S.

 

[MattHooper]

Analogue was never perfect IME but indeed it can be fun to dick about with.

Agreed. My phono stage allows easy access to changing all the cartridge parameters, loading, impedance etc. I sometimes like to select a different impedance and can enjoy how it changes the sound. My usual impedance setting is the one that sounds almost indistinguishable from my digital source in terms of "accuracy" (e.g. when I compare a vinyl version to the digital, both the same masters, this is the setting in which the sound departs the least between the vinyl and digital).

Lowering the impedance creates a slightly looser, bigger more lush sound. Raising the impedance setting creates a tighter sound with slightly more brilliant top end, with clearer transients. Fun stuff. (Naturally you could do this with digital as well via eq - though I'm not sure you could completely produce the same effects only with eq. When I change the impedance for the cartridge my impression isn't just of frequency sculpting, losing high frequency or whatever, but also of a bigger, looser sound especially in the bass, very much like switching out a solid state amp for a tube amp that has less damping control of the bass making it more billowy and bigger, less tight).

 

[BDWoody]

Agreed. My phono stage allows easy access to changing all the cartridge parameters, loading, impedance etc. I sometimes like to select a different impedance and can enjoy how it changes the sound. My usual impedance setting is the one that sounds almost indistinguishable from my digital source in terms of "accuracy" (e.g. when I compare a vinyl version to the digital, both the same masters, this is the setting in which the sound departs the least between the vinyl and digital).

Lowering the impedance creates a slightly looser, bigger more lush sound. Raising the impedance setting creates a tighter sound with slightly more brilliant top end, with clearer transients. Fun stuff. (Naturally you could do this with digital as well via eq - though I'm not sure you could completely produce the same effects only with eq. When I change the impedance for the cartridge my impression isn't just of frequency sculpting, losing high frequency or whatever, but also of a bigger, looser sound especially in the bass, very much like switching out a solid state amp for a tube amp that has less damping control of the bass making it more billowy and bigger, less tight).

I was just playing around with the same changes on the box on its way to SIY, and was trying to figure out exactly what combination worked best with the unknown cartridge in there. Waiting on a vm540, but it certainly doesn't sound bad. Definitely fun to play around with.