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Topping Pre90 Review (preamplifier)

restorer-john

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But how many DAC’s do you see people realistically hooking up to a pre? I have to agree with Jon on this, isn’t the whole point of a device like this to aggregate all your sources for use with a single output chain?

Exactly. The user is likely to have one hardcore D/A converter (DAC if you like) with obscene drive capability attached.

There also may be all types of analog sources, DVD players, CD players, Gaming consoles, TV sound, tuners, legacy (hate that term) devices like cassette/reel to reel/tuner/graphic eqs/RIAA stages/computer audio etc. None of those will like a low impedance and will suffer performance anxiety.
 

YSC

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Exactly. The user is likely to have one hardcore D/A converter (DAC if you like) with obscene drive capability attached.

There also may be all types of analog sources, DVD players, CD players, Gaming consoles, TV sound, tuners, legacy (hate that term) devices like cassette/reel to reel/tuner/graphic eqs/RIAA stages/computer audio etc. None of those will like a low impedance and will suffer performance anxiety.
to be on a fair side, the RCA where most TV and legacy devices uses have proper 10kohm impedance so likely for the few RCA devices, but it would be nice at least to acknowledge that there might be potential problem if your source is having >200ohm output impedance IMO
 

Matias

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OK, the low input impedance and compatibility point is made, can we move on?
 

misterdog

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Can both XLR and RCA be output at the same time, so RCA could be used for subwoofers ?
 

Matias

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daftcombo

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Little Bear MC2 has 20 kOhm input impedance for 35$. Would have it been difficult to have the same on the Pre90?
 
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Francis Vaughan

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the possible impedance mismatch.
I'm going to be pedantic here, but unless some is, it will get repeated. The issue with impedances here is not an impedance miss-match. Matched impedances occur when both the input and output impedances are the same. That is why they are called matched. In ordinary audio this is never the situation, and we always have impedance miss-matches. By design. Indeed the complaint here is not the there is an impedance miss-match, but that the miss-match is not great enough. In transmission lines we have a situation where we need maximised power transmission, and impedance matching is required. You will see this in very long lines (think telephones) or in RF circuits and antenna matching. If the impedances are not matched, things don't work well, and power is lost, or reflected back. Neither is good. A meter of coax or twisted pair is not a transmission line at audio frequencies (despite what the cable woo marketeers might have tried to tell you.)

What is being complained here about is not the unbalanced RCAs, they are perfectly ordinary 10kΩ, and perfectly fine with any legacy equipment anyone might own) but the lower than ordinary balanced input impedance. The impedance of the input appears across the output impedance, and between them presents a possible potential divider. Minimally you lose some voltage across this divider. If, for example, the output impedance was 2kΩ and the input 2kΩ, you would halve the voltage seen by the pre-amp.
If the output impedance is reactive (ie has an imaginary component - such as a capacitor) the divider will have a frequency dependant division, and if capacitive, will roll off the low frequencies, as it makes a simple high pass filter. The use of capacitively coupled balanced outputs or transformer coupled balanced outputs is the issue. If you have gear with these, care with this pre-amp might a good idea. It may not be as good a match as one might hope. But then again, if your balanced gear can drive that input happily, you will potentially see better noise and no downside.

Douglas Self makes the point that a high input impedance does not instantly mean poorer noise, as you can achieve the higher impedance with bootstrapping. He has a fairly well known design that acheives similar performance to the pre90, but with 47kΩ input on each leg.
 

misterdog

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You are right but there's nothing like what is talked about in #66 in the Little Bear MC2.

178357745.jpg



Send it to Amir for a comparison.
 

kopczas

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What is being complained here about is not the unbalanced RCAs, they are perfectly ordinary 10kΩ, and perfectly fine with any legacy equipment anyone might own)

And thats you need to know. Some users complained that they use older dacs or other equipment that would "have problem" with low input impedance. While RCA has 10k and, as far as I know, 99% of older devices use single-ended design, they would match perfectly to Pre90 with 10k input.
 

DSJR

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'And thats you need to know. Some users complained that they use older dacs or other equipment that would "have problem" with low input impedance. While RCA has 10k and, as far as I know, 99% of older devices use single-ended design, they would match perfectly to Pre90 with 10k input. '



My old Quad tuner wouldn't (at least not very well) and although below the high-falutin' objective levels here, the Rega Planet and Apollo CD players (the latter still popular in the UK at least and a pleasant sound for its fans) specifies a 50k or so input impedance on the amp.
 

nobody

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Preamp? Do people actually?

Even our buddy Paul says you don't need one
For example, I definitely need an preamp. My poweamps are Hypex NC500 monoblocks without input buffer and I need the additional gain to drive them to usable volume levels with low sensitive loudspeakers I own (Thiel and Magnepan). From my former DACs (Mytek, Audiolab M-DAC, Benchmark DAC1) only Benchmark had enough output voltage. I currently use A90 and it's fantastic sound quality. It beats my friends Mark Levinson ML 380 in transparency and bass definition (the Levinson is still fantastic preamp for its age and has very pleasant warmer sound) and is also more transparent than my former Primare PRE32 preamp. The Pre90 with remote control is currently next in my purchase list!
 

audio_tony

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Sadly, as well as this preamp measures, I feel that we are in a race to the bottom aiming for the best specs by introducing unnecessary compromises.

Douglas Self has said that balanced connections are rarely necessary in a domestic environment - he has also pointed out that balanced connections are inherently noisier* than unbalanced connections, and require a lot more silicon to even match the noise specs of an unbalanced input (let alone better it).

What we have here IMHO, is the MQA of preamps - it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

It is possible to build a very low noise preamp without the input impedance compromises. Even 10k is too low for non DC coupled sources, unless they have large (=>47uF) coupling capacitors in the output stage.

*electronically noisier - the balanced connection does offer improved noise immunity to EMI etc. which is a different type of noise.
 

MetalDaze

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I've been searching for the elusive preamp after I sold my lame integrated/preamp. But preamps are f.....g expensive. The price of the Pre90 is half of what I've been evaluating. Amir's test is mostly ceremonial with regard to Topping. Still the Pre90 deserves its coronation. I'm no technical person and I owned a D70 and now the L30. I think and most likely, I'm getting one.

They are. More so than I expected or wanted to believe they were worth. When I went hunting to find something to elevate my 2 channel listening, I was pretty defeated in my findings at first. I found the second hand market was a better fit for my budget. I was able to find a Parasound P5 which had seen very light use for less than half of its MSRP (I think it was $1050 new). I've read a few posts from members here who have a p5, and am hoping to one day see it tested here so we can really see what's what.

I wanted the P5 because it has home theater bypass, analog bass management & tone controls. Along with being a great line stage for the variety of inputs I have to connect to it. It has some drawbacks (like the analog volume POT) but overall its been a great pre.

Both the second hand and new markets have things to offer. Patients is key! :)
 
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