From looking at the reliability of Topping's other products, you've got about 50/50 chance that you paid for a $1k nonfunctioning brick. Instead of making spurious comments about Benchmark, perhaps consider that it takes time, effort, and money to make an actually exceptional product along with offering top notch customer support. Looks like Apollon Audio has a similar price range as Benchmark, and from what I can tell, they too offer great customer service. Topping is rapidly establishing that the only thing they are good at making are products that temporarily measure well before they soon self-destruct and then leaving it to the buyer to try to recoup his losses as best he is able. Please do check back in a year's time (or likely much less) on what a great buy Topping is.
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Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier)
- Thread starter amirm
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From looking at the reliability of Topping's other products, you've got about 50/50 chance that you paid for a $1k nonfunctioning brick. Instead of making spurious comments about Benchmark, perhaps consider that it takes time, effort, and money to make an actually exceptional product along with offering top notch customer support. Looks like Apollon Audio has a similar price range as Benchmark, and from what I can tell, they too offer great customer service. Topping is rapidly establishing that the only thing they are good at making are products that temporarily measure well before they soon self-destruct and then leaving it to the buyer to try to recoup his losses as best he is able. Please do check back in a year's time (or likely much less) on what a great buy Topping is.
I only brought up Benchmark because the only amp with similar specs to the LA90 is their flagship. The amps are so different in every other way - isn't Benchmark's class D?
Anyway, I'm criticizing all manufacturers. Why is it that with so few parts and for such a low cost, these specifications are possible?
Only:
- incompetence
- greed
come to my mind as the possible explanations for the more established brands to not have comparable products available for reasonable prices.
BTW, from what I've been able to gather and see, the parts in the LA90 seem to be of high quality - the bulk caps definitely are (and they're one part that would definitely have to be for -120.
You don't get a product that measures this well by using shite parts and doing a shite job putting them together.
All the same parts are available and are use d by Topping in their designs as other brands you consider better, and they use the same methods of production, same standards. They might even be made in the same massive factory...
There's no reason that what they make should break in a year's time (or even ten...)
Topping is putting "better" brands to shame! Don't you think those "better" brands should be able to make something "quality" for no more than twice the price that Topping is selling their stuff for? EASILY!
But they're not!
WAY too often, they're charging 10-20+ times the price for stuff that's not even as good. It's pathetic
I agree with you that their stuff isn't polished, but it's so far from garbage that'll be broken in a year it's not even funny. For you to directly state a 50% failure rate at 1 year shows your bias... Are you angry about something? Did you drop 10K on a DAC 4 years ago that the G5 runs circles around now? I'd like to understand, tell me lol
Edit: there's also economy of scale that Benchmark doesn't benefit from. The advantage they have from that enables the "better customer service" offered by more established brands.
In the simple device market, the replacement of defective products is customer service. What else could you need? (Topping does replace defective afaik)
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Sokel
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Benchmark is class AB.
I certainly won't defend all audio companies. I think there is some price gouging happening in some instances. However, I think Benchmark is a good actor. Taking them as an example, I don't know what their profit margins are, but given the quality of the product that they put out and the fact that they are made in the United States, I'd say their costs are already higher than Topping's. Additionally, they have much better customer support. All of that costs money and raises the price of the product.
Regarding Topping's quality, many members here have posted about their Topping products dying not long after purchase, from DOA to 9 months, and that's with multiple product offerings. At best what Topping has demonstrated is an interesting experiment about what may be possible, but until they actually deliver a product without high critical failure rates, then they haven't demonstrated a company can make a successful product as cheaply as they can and be a viable business. Unless they make much, much better products, they are going to go out of business.
There's also economy of scale
there's also economy of scale that topping doesn't benefit from. The advantage larger companies have from that enables the "better customer service" offered by the more established brands.
In the simple device market, the replacement of defective products is customer service. What else could you need? (Topping does replace defective afaik)
What topping shows with its products is what's possible - shows what a crap job established brands are doing. I can't explain their supposed high failure rates - all parts are from the same source and all boards are made the same. Some could be down to this being a hobby and more consumer oriented stuff just gets returned without complaint because theyre established giants and complaining won't do anything
The vast majority of Topping devices will last the appropriate amount of time, there's no way a 50% failure rate.
I added this
there's also economy of scale that topping doesn't benefit from. The advantage larger companies have from that enables the "better customer service" offered by the more established brands.
In the simple device market, the replacement of defective products is customer service. What else could you need? (Topping does replace defective afaik)
What topping shows with its products is what's possible - shows what a crap job established brands are doing. I can't explain their supposed high failure rates - all parts are from the same source and all boards are made the same. Some could be down to this being a hobby and more consumer oriented stuff just gets returned without complaint because theyre established giants and complaining won't do anything
The vast majority of Topping devices will last the appropriate amount of time, there's no way a 50% failure rate.
formdissolve
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I've had four different Topping products over the last two years and not one of them has failed on me, including this LA90 amp. Used nearly every day. Sure, there are failure rates for things like the PA5 which make me uncomfortable, but I haven't had one issue yet.
I guess this comes down to another conversation I had here. Reliability and longevity are important criteria for me. If those aren't important to someone, then I suppose they could be satisfied replacing defective products. Some members here have posted about having to do so with Topping multiple times. I can't imagine such a company wouldn't burn through its customers' goodwill with such an approach, but maybe the market has shifted enough to a throwaway economy that such a business model is sustainable.
There's a poll thread for the reliability of the LA90 amp. Out of 24 replies, 50% report no issues and 50% report issues, so it seems you are one of the lucky ones.
A poll cannot be regarded as a scientific base for conclusions about issue-rate. The issue-reporters will always be overrepresented, as compainers are more motivated to express their issues, as a way to get attention, give way to their negative emotions, feel confirmed in their experiences and even hope to maybe get (more) reaction or compensation from the dealer or Topping self. Buyers with no isues have only litle to gain, maybe a good feeling that their product is good or that they are luckly to have no problems. Both feelings are already there without participating in the poll. A scientific reliable method could be a mathematic sampling on all the buyers. Of course this not realistic.
p.s. Own two DS90 and two LA90: no issues. The LA90's are in stereomode with at least 4 Ohm loads. Overdriving is avoided by an all time save max level of the input. The speakers can handle the max power without coming out of their save operating areas of watts and max. linear cone excursions. The amps have ample room for heat dissipation.
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I'm not saying it's a scientific study, nor will one be conducted of course. I have not seen another company with such a high reported failure rate on its products in my time reading audio forums. It would worry me to own such a product given that it's an electronic device, but each person is free to assume his own level of risk.
You switch continiously from objective to subjective and at the end back to objective. Nice try but to obvious for me.
Ok. Enjoy your amp.
manisandher
Addicted to Fun and Learning
No.
manisandher
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Wrong again.
Are you aware that this thread concerns the original (IC version) LA90? Name me a single incident of a failure.
Yes, those stats are for the LA90D, not the LA90 A/B version as you mention. Also, it does seem like the A/B version is solid at least in what I can find. In that regard, congratulations. It seems the company may have been putting out a decent product at one point, so you may have a solid product. That would help explain how the buzz started with this company in the first place.
Given the products they've been putting out lately, and the way customers have had to work to get refunded, I would neither trust them nor want their products in my house.
As said, enjoy your amp.
manisandher
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Both the original LA90 and the newer LA90D are class AB amps. The "D" denotes the use of discrete components, as opposed to an IC.
In hobby communities, issues get talked about a lot more than big corporate - people just return their things and don't complain a lot - I think probably because they know they're up against a big machine and it's extremely unlikely that anything they say will have an effect at all on future product quality. Often large corporations don't even consider incorporating a design change or feature that would make their product much better or easier to use - they made it, it's made, it sells, it's bringing in money, it's enough money, keep it rolling!
I'd like to you consider that there is no reason for Topping's products to break any earlier than other Chinese manufacturers. The boards they use are all made professionally, the parts that populate them are the same as everyone else, and their designs... clearly they know what they're doing - more so than WAY better funded and longer established businesses.
There is public relations and reputation management that companies do to foster a positive customer experience. In the same way but on the opposite side of that - when companies with evil leaders (psychpaths, narcissists: both more common than you think) are threatened or slighted or someone might be releasing a product that, if sold unhindered, would plunge the immoral company's potential profits- they go on the offensive. They'll leave bad reviews. They'll sabotage. They'll have teams to sabotage. I'm sure you've seen those fraud call centers in India? Minions aren't hard to come by. Like a private intelligence agency for the private corporation (remember we're talking companies worth millions (eg. 30,000,000) to billions (eg. 3,000,000,000 )of dollars here... These people do intellectual property theft and outright fraud - they're very morally compromised. One way to sabotage would be Company A buying up a bunch of Company B's products to have them messed with (eg. screw up a solder joint or two in every third so there's early failure especially around release). These are things that can and do happen...
Topping has exposed so many DAC and headphone amplifier manufacturers (and now even stereo amplifier manufacturers) for the fools they obviously are... They've had DECADES to make something like the LA90... It's actually really sad! I'm not saying the broken Topping products were broken by someone else - espionage is just something that happens too commonly and is an interesting topic I delved into which is a possibility but not likely IMO (the most likely espionage would be other companies or affiliates of associated companies making accounts on forums with only one post - saying they bought a Topping X, and it broke!).
Personally I think there aren't nearly as many broken Topping products as you think there are (or as it might look there are).
I have something I want you to think about and then give me your thoughts on:
Why would Topping's devices have much higher failure rates compared to similar devices made by other, similar, companies, when
- they all make boards the same way,
- attach components the same way,
- and get parts from the same suppliers.
And package and ship their components the same (Topping's packaging is actually really good and might be better than most)
Which was reviewed here?
Is the one with discrete components any better? The one I have coming was just called LA90...
ICs are just multiple discrete components in a single package... Unless there's cross talk, as long as the IC is good, the product is good, right?
Aren't ICs usually chosen to simplify things because the transistors are matched?
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