Topping E30 II DAC Review

[DanielT]

Gadgets that don't work as they should, that break much earlier than expected. In general, it's like a slap in the face:
Not specifically Topping, which we don't know if it's coincidence, but all products, not just in HiFi.

OT.
That challenge has become popular. I myself have been exposed to it with my niece. Damn what it sounds like when you slap....He he.

The challenge.Water in the mouth, then take turns slapping each other on the jaw. Whoever spits out the water lose.
Yep, extremely silly, but life doesn't get any more fun than you make it out to be.
Cartoon violence IRL. The kids love it (as Mel Brooks said). Lol.

 

[Whoareyou]

Ok. Many a discussion regarding Topping reliability of certain models. I have a pre90 that's been flawless for over a year, so it seems to be stable, and I've yet to see anyone complaining about that model. But ...... If I do need service?

JohnYang1997 advises to stick with the regional distributors. For me that is Apos, and also where I purchased the pre90.

But what exactly does that mean as far as service, warranty or otherwise? My only experience was with the pre90 which was "apos certified". I received the unit with wrong remote control, and even for something this basic, the turn-around time was approximately 3 weeks before resolution. Yes, they ultimately resolved it, but it was like pulling teeth to even get their attention to my issue. Don't get me wrong, they took care of me, but it took herculean effort to finally get their attention and get me a new remote.

Now, the pre90 itself is stellar but if I ever needed *real* service, I suspect my pre90 wouldn't have a chance at seeing service.

So, anyone ever go through one of the distributors for a warranty or non-warranty repair? Of course, I'm especially interested in Apos but I would like to hear about any experience. Perhaps @JohnYang1997 would also be interested in hearing the anecdotal stories?

 

[respice finem]

Ok. Many a discussion regarding Topping reliability of certain models. I have a pre90 that's been flawless for over a year, so it seems to be stable, and I've yet to see anyone complaining about that model. But ...... If I do need service?

JohnYang1997 advises to stick with the regional distributors. For me that is Apos, and also where I purchased the pre90.

But what exactly does that mean as far as service, warranty or otherwise? My only experience was with the pre90 which was "apos certified". I received the unit with wrong remote control, and even for something this basic, the turn-around time was approximately 3 weeks before resolution. Yes, they ultimately resolved it, but it was like pulling teeth to even get their attention to my issue. Don't get me wrong, they took care of me, but it took herculean effort to finally get their attention and get me a new remote.

Now, the pre90 itself is stellar but if I ever needed *real* service, I suspect my pre90 wouldn't have a chance at seeing service.

So, anyone ever go through one of the distributors for a warranty or non-warranty repair? Of course, I'm especially interested in Apos but I would like to hear about any experience. Perhaps @JohnYang1997 would also be interested in hearing the anecdotal stories?

SOT / speaking of anecdotal stories: My then 8 years old Lehmann Rhinelander HPA/preamp developed a defect (which was a "shot" op-amp, plus the volume pot had to be replaced). I phoned the company, Mr. Lehmann (sic) said send it in, in a few days it was back, repaired. Summary cost (with mailing) about 90 €. I do live in Germany, but still, the distance was about 700 km.

The certain "catch": If my unit would cost 150 €, such a repair would be economically nonsense... Even in its real price range (about 400 €) it's kind of much for an 8 years old device. So I guess we should not expect miracles (apart from the obligatory warranty service / replacement).

 

[Trell]

Ok. Many a discussion regarding Topping reliability of certain models. I have a pre90 that's been flawless for over a year, so it seems to be stable, and I've yet to see anyone complaining about that model. But ...... If I do need service?

JohnYang1997 advises to stick with the regional distributors. For me that is Apos, and also where I purchased the pre90.

But what exactly does that mean as far as service, warranty or otherwise? My only experience was with the pre90 which was "apos certified". I received the unit with wrong remote control, and even for something this basic, the turn-around time was approximately 3 weeks before resolution. Yes, they ultimately resolved it, but it was like pulling teeth to even get their attention to my issue. Don't get me wrong, they took care of me, but it took herculean effort to finally get their attention and get me a new remote.

Now, the pre90 itself is stellar but if I ever needed *real* service, I suspect my pre90 wouldn't have a chance at seeing service.

So, anyone ever go through one of the distributors for a warranty or non-warranty repair? Of course, I'm especially interested in Apos but I would like to hear about any experience. Perhaps @JohnYang1997 would also be interested in hearing the anecdotal stories?

Obviously, this depends on where you live.

One major reason for buying from a local reseller, instead of private import from China, is to take advantage of local consumer laws concerning warranty which typically are much longer and may have bigger scope of what is in included in the warranty (2nd hand warranty, say). Another reason is that you'll be dealing with the reseller for warranty/service, and that can be a huge money and time saver (transportation costs, possibly custom duties and other fees). A "right to try and send back" is typically also available. And if there is any dispute you'll deal with the reseller only.

So, check your local consumer laws.

As for anecdote: I bought an Earthworks Audio SR314 (made in USA) microphone from thomann.de (very big German online music store) that had it's internal electronics break and just output noise. I bought it over a year ago, so I contacted thomann.de as I've two years warranty. It's currently in repair with no costs to me at all, none! Had I imported it from USA it would probably have been fairly expensive to have it repaired as I live in Europe.

 

[Sokel]

So, check your local consumer laws.

I hope I don't have to subscribe to a lawyers forum as well as ASR if I ever need a dac or an amp

(just joking)

 

[Trell]

I hope I don't have to subscribe to a lawyers forum as well as ASR if I ever need a dac or an amp

(just joking)

Hah! There should be readily available information for consumers, but I do get your point. It can be from the government or from consumer organizations.

 

[DanielT]

Generally. Skip this bizzare SINAD race that it seems different manufacturers are competing with now. Focus on reliability and functionality. That regarding DAC but also no one is happier with let's say an amp with clearly below audible distortion / noise compared to one that has extreme ditto (many of the DACs Amir tests have extremely inaudible deviations, by the way). It does not matter. More power instead. Amps driven into clipping are no fun. Then stuff that lasts the test of time is worth paying for.

OT:
Moreover. We've all heard of an amp that is driven into clipping. It just sounds really bad. Absolutely nothing imaginary. This happens with too little amp power.
(clock radio, old car stereo, and so on)

 

[Doodski]

Generally. Skip this bizzare SINAD race that it seems different manufacturers are competing with now. Focus on reliability and functionality. That regarding DAC but also no one is happier with let's say an amp with clearly below audible distortion / noise compared to one that has extreme ditto (many of the DACs Amir tests have extremely inaudible deviations, by the way). It does not matter. More power instead. Amps driven into clipping are no fun. Then stuff that lasts the test of time is worth paying for.

How do you intend to qualify various models and types of stuff too?

 

[DanielT]

How do you intend to qualify various models and types of stuff too?

It is more of a wish than an identification. What's the point of designing stuff with lower SINAD when from the starting point it still is inaudible? Seriously, I don't get it.

Shouldn't the focus then be on something else? SINAD level is sufficient. Even more than adequate.Why this ( in my eyes) meaningless race to the bottom? It's not something we hear anyway? Or?

 

[Doodski]

It is more of a wish than an identification. What's the point of designing stuff with longer SINAD when from the starting point they still had inaudible ditto? Seriously, I don't get it.

Testing for defectives would require months and years of powering the unit ON and switching it to various operations and test driving it. Imagine the quantity of the units under test, consuming energy and creating heat. It's simply not feasible for a one man operation in the home. A dedicated building with workers, electrical mains supply and cooling would be required to long-term-test stuff.

SINAD is a good metric. It works to separate the wheat from the chaff. The FFT view of SINAD indicates muchO about the device under test.

 

[Lambda]

What's the point of designing stuff with longer SINAD when from the starting point they still had inaudible ditto?

Whats the point of not having a view percent bugs in your burger you wont taste it anyways...
It is not like by having low noise and distortion manufactures inherently have to compromise reliability.

Many user's don't drive there DAC at 0dB they have maybe "halve volume "in there operating system and in the player/app and on the DAC itself.
this way they can comfortably control volume up and down everywhere.

So maybe they use the DAC @ -12 to -24dB
There are some DACs that offer >120dB THD+N and linearity if driven at -24dB (but many don’t)

Sure this would be a case of "they just using it wrong" but there are many DACs out there that even if used wrong perform excellent.
and some are not

And of cause the DAC is not the only source of noise and distortion in the system and it only adds up and gets worse.
So why not start with signal as good an clean as possible

 

[DanielT]

Testing for defectives would require months and years of powering the unit ON and switching it to various operations and test driving it. Imagine the quantity of the units under test, consuming energy and creating heat. It's simply not feasible for a one man operation in the home. A dedicated building with workers, electrical mains supply and cooling would be required to long-term-test stuff.

SINAD is a good metric. It works to separate the wheat from the chaff. The FFT view of SINAD indicates muchO about the device under test.

So what do the manufacturers do? Don't they stress test their stuff? Do they just send them out after they smack them together?

Not all units in the production chain are subjected, picked at random, to extreme tests, but how many?

 

[Thomas savage]

Testing for defectives would require months and years of powering the unit ON and switching it to various operations and test driving it. Imagine the quantity of the units under test, consuming energy and creating heat. It's simply not feasible for a one man operation in the home. A dedicated building with workers, electrical mains supply and cooling would be required to long-term-test stuff.

SINAD is a good metric. It works to separate the wheat from the chaff. The FFT view of SINAD indicates muchO about the device under test.

Hes got a point though, you get extrapolated usage reporting with cars for example.

It would be great if we had a core selection of members that would be up for running gear for a year and reporting back their experience. Wouldn't be practical for everything tested but that dosnt mean it should be dismissed out of hand

Definitely be valuable and you'd hope it might encourage manufacturers to aspire to a higher standard too.

In practice this might end up being difficult to do , worth thinking about , assuming it's not already been considered and binned that is .

 

[DanielT]

Whats the point of not having a view percent bugs in your burger you wont taste it anyways...
It is not like by having low noise and distortion manufactures inherently have to compromise reliability.

Many user's don't drive there DAC at 0dB they have maybe "halve volume "in there operating system and in the player/app and on the DAC itself.
this way they can comfortably control volume up and down everywhere.

So maybe they use the DAC @ -12 to -24dB
There are some DACs that offer >120dB THD+N and linearity if driven at -24dB (but many don’t)

Sure this would be a case of "they just using it wrong" but there are many DACs out there that even if used wrong perform excellent.
and some are not

And of cause the DAC is not the only source of noise and distortion in the system and it only adds up and gets worse.
So why not start with signal as good an clean as possible

Maybe it doesn't add up. To automatically believe that one can exclude one with the other? One leads to the other? BUT! As for amplifiers, there are amps with varying amounts of power, distortion/noise, ability to drive speakers with low Ohms.

SINAD is not the only thing to think about.

 

[Doodski]

So what do the manufacturers do? Don't they stress test their stuff? Do they just send them out after they smack them together?

Sometimes they bake them in a calibrated oven and cool them too. Cooling is good for semi-conductor fault finding. Think freeze spray cooling.

Not all units in the production chain are subjected, picked at random, to extreme tests, but how many?

If testing then all units are tested. Randomly sampling the pool is not suitable.

 

[Swtoby]

So what do the manufacturers do? Don't they stress test their stuff? Do they just send them out after they smack them together?

Not all units in the production chain are subjected, picked at random, to extreme tests, but how many?

Some do "burn in" before shipping, like power cycling to try and weed out early failures.

 

[Lambda]

SINAD is not the only thing to think about.

Never said this.
But high SINAD is not a bad thing

 

[DanielT]

If testing then all units are tested. Randomly sampling the pool is not suitable.

What I'm really wondering about is if the things are tested to the max, to their braking point, when they break? What extremes it takes to destroy them? Then based on that "counting backwards" to figure out what a reasonable braking point is.

Note not only Topping now but all other manufacturers with i HiFi. That regardless of HiFi gadget.

 

[Doodski]

"counting backwards" what a reasonable braking point is..

Fantastical thinking.

What I'm really wondering about is if the things are tested to the max, to their braking point, when they break? What extremes it takes to destroy them.

Non-destructive testing (NDT) is the test method. Anything can be damaged by over testing it. Creating a destructive test simply results in a fried unit that probably smells too.

 

[Swtoby]

IMO, another gauge of reliability is how the manufacturer handles a failure. In my experience, the cost of a component doesn't necessarily equate with good customer service and products from companies that care about the user experience seem to correlate with trouble free use in general. So I say look to excellent customer service if you want a reliable product.