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Topping D10s noise via Mac mini

BKDad

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Do you see 50/100 Hz signal in the second graph?

No.

So, I must not be interpreting your information correctly.

The first graph is for the D10s sourced from the Mac Mini, right? The measurement part was the the E1DA ADC feeding a battery powered MacBook, correct?

The second graph is with the D10s sourced from the same battery powered MacBook as is connected to the E1DA ADC, yeah? The isolator was in line, and powered by the phone charger, yes?

If you were to draw a simple block diagram of both arrangements, in one case you'd find a number of components that are powered through the AC mains. These connections can and probably will provide common mode current paths for various power supply artifacts as well as audio signals. Am I correct with that? In the other case, there's no subtle AC connections because it's all floating relative to the AC mains.

Please correct my misunderstanding and stupidity here.
 
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Thomas_A

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No.

So, I must not be interpreting your information correctly.

The first graph is for the D10s sourced from the Mac Mini, right? The measurement part was the the E1DA ADC feeding a battery powered MacBook, correct?

The second graph is with the D10s sourced from the same battery powered MacBook as is connected to the E1DA ADC, yeah? The isolator was in line, and powered by the phone charger, yes?

If you were to draw a simple block diagram of both arrangements, in one case you'd find a number of components that are powered through the AC mains. These connections can and probably will provide common mode current paths for various power supply artifacts as well as audio signals. Am I correct with that? In the other case, there's no subtle AC connections because it's all floating relative to the AC mains.

Please correct my misunderstanding and stupidity here.
In the first one:
Mac mini->D10s->E1DA->Macbook (battery). Result is exactly the same if I have an USB isolator with prong inserted or not.

The second one:
Macbook ->D10s ->isolator (powered two prong) ->E1DA -> Macbook. Macbook on battery. No signal through if I use non-powered isolator.
 

BKDad

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In the first one:
Mac mini->D10s->E1DA->Macbook (battery). Result is exactly the same if I have an USB isolator with prong inserted or not.

The second one:
Macbook ->D10s ->isolator (powered two prong) ->E1DA -> Macbook. Macbook on battery. No signal through if I use non-powered isolator.
What do you mean by "prong"? Language thing, I think.

Edit: Where is the isolator in these two set-ups? Between the Mini and the D10s or between the E1DA ADC and the MacBook or Mini?
 
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Thomas_A

Thomas_A

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What do you mean by "prong"? Language thing, I think.

Edit: Where is the isolator in these two set-ups? Between the Mini and the D10s or between the E1DA ADC and the MacBook or Mini?
"two prong ac plug"

1st case: The isolator comes between the Mac mini and D10s.
2nd case: The isolator comes between the Macbook ad the D10s.

Isolator does not work without the separate power. Using a phone adapter as recommended by Topping:

 

BKDad

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I'm going to provide a summary from my end here. I don't think I'm being very helpful to Thomas_A, but perhaps somebody else will benefit from a wrap-up. Or, maybe somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong and everybody will gain from that. I would gain...

I connected up a system very similar to Thomas_A's:

iMac > USB hub > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA ADC > USB hub > iMac.

The results were shown in the red trace of the graph I posted earlier. No very useful for measurements, eh? I was ready to return the D10s, thinking I had a defective sample, but I pressed on.

I then connected a set-up like this:

iMac > (no USB hub external to the iMac) > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA > second iMac.

The second iMac was plugged into a different AC mains circuit across the room. The results looked different, but the SINAD was about the same. Still no good.

So, next, I replaced the second iMac with a MacBook Air running from its internal battery.

Perfect! Just like the black trace in the graph. I was ready to accept the need for using a battery powered laptop in conjunction with the E1DA ADC to make measurements.

Then, I tried adding a USB isolator between the USB hub and the D10s in the original set-up. Same results as with the battery powered MacBook Air. Eureka!

I declared success and built a more user friendly USB isolator, like in an actual case. That's what I use in the test system now. That's what is shown in the earlier graph - the test system with and without a USB isolator that I built myself. Objective graphical proof. A Topping HS02 gave identical results.

Then, I wondered if the same types of solutions would improve the sound in the living room music and movie system. On one hand, I knew that other system aspects might totally mask any improvement that could be measured. On the other hand, an actual listening system is far more complicated in terms of potential common mode current paths, so isolation might be a help there. I didn't buy anything new, just moved the isolation pieces down to the living room. Sure enough, there was a definite substantial improvement in sound quality. Enough so that I bought the pieces to add isolation to the living room system on a permanent basis. If there was no difference, I wouldn't have bothered adding complexity and spending more money. This was in an entirely different system using a different source computer, different cables, different DAC, and of course a preamp, power amplifier, and loudspeakers. I even applied the same techniques to the sound system attached to this iMac, which uses an Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt and some powered Emotive desktop loudspeakers. Big improvement here, too.

So, what else can I say? Maybe, my situation in all three systems is completely unique. Maybe not.

One last thing: I think it's always good to draw a detailed block diagram of any electronics system that shows all the connections between components. That way it's possible to really examine all the current paths, both desired and undesired. You certainly want to minimize the effects of undesired currents. Those paths are not always immediately obvious. The currents can be hard to measure, but the results show up at the output.
 
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Thomas_A

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I'm going to provide a summary from my end here. I don't think I'm being very helpful to Thomas_A, but perhaps somebody else will benefit from a wrap-up. Or, maybe somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong and everybody will gain from that. I would gain...

I connected up a system very similar to Thomas_A's:

iMac > USB hub > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA ADC > USB hub > iMac.

The results were shown in the red trace of the graph I posted earlier. No very useful for measurements, eh? I was ready to return the D10s, thinking I had a defective sample, but I pressed on.

I then connected a set-up like this:

iMac > (no USB hub external to the iMac) > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA > second iMac.

The second iMac was plugged into a different AC mains circuit across the room. The results looked different, but the SINAD was about the same. Still no good.

So, next, I replaced the second iMac with a MacBook Air running from its internal battery.

Perfect! Just like the black trace in the graph. I was ready to accept the need for using a battery powered laptop in conjunction with the E1DA ADC to make measurements.

Then, I tried adding a USB isolator between the USB hub and the D10s in the original set-up. Same results as with the battery powered MacBook Air. Eureka!

I declared success and built a more user friendly USB isolator, like in an actual case. That's what I use in the test system now. That's what is shown in the earlier graph - the test system with and without a USB isolator that I built myself. Objective graphical proof. A Topping HS02 gave identical results.

Then, I wondered if the same types of solutions would improve the sound in the living room music and movie system. On one hand, I knew that other system aspects might totally mask any improvement that could be measured. On the other hand, an actual listening system is far more complicated in terms of potential common mode current paths, so isolation might be a help there. I didn't buy anything new, just moved the isolation pieces down to the living room. Sure enough, there was a definite substantial improvement in sound quality. Enough so that I bought the pieces to add isolation to the living room system on a permanent basis. If there was no difference, I wouldn't have bothered adding complexity and spending more money. This was in an entirely different system using a different source computer, different cables, different DAC, and of course a preamp, power amplifier, and loudspeakers. I even applied the same techniques to the sound system attached to this iMac, which uses an Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt and some powered Emotive desktop loudspeakers. Big improvement here, too.

So, what else can I say? Maybe, my situation in all three systems is completely unique. Maybe not.

One last thing: I think it's always good to draw a detailed block diagram of any electronics system that shows all the connections between components. That way it's possible to really examine all the current paths, both desired and undesired. You certainly want to minimize the effects of undesired currents. Those paths are not always immediately obvious. The currents can be hard to measure, but the results show up at the output.
The shape/pattern of the curves you present is typical (shown also by others); I can also reproduce this with the Macbook with/without isolator. The issue is that I get the 100 Hz noise from Macmini->D10s connection. It appears not to be GND-loop noise, but something else induced.
 

gvl

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What can it be that differs graph 1 to graph 2?

Results in graph 1 indicate more noise but it’s not visible on the graph as all the spikes are well below the THD+N of -98dB. This is more likely random noise that FFT can see under, this noise usually manifests itself as hiss if your system has high gain or sensitive speakers.
 
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Thomas_A

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Results in graph 1 indicate more noise but it’s not visible on the graph as all the spikes are well below the THD+N of -98dB. This is more likely random noise that FFT can see under, this noise usually manifests itself as hiss if your system has high gain or sensitive speakers.
Yes the spikes are below. It's commonly seen also in Amirs reviews; noise/THD-peaks are well below SINAD, e.g:


Not sure how the noise and distortion is weighted, but it should follow some standard.
 

gvl

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To see the more real noise floor you need to reduce the FFT gain I think. FFT gain allows to look under the noise floor.

This looks like your mini is the source of this (random?) noise. You can’t really expect a $100 DAC to be fully immune to external factors.
 
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Thomas_A

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To see the more real noise floor you need to reduce the FFT gain I think. FFT gain allows to look under the noise floor.

This looks like your mini is the source of this (random?) noise. You can’t really expect a $100 DAC to be fully immune to external factors.
I am not sure what I can expect but as far as I know most people expect to get perfomance similar with those of Amirs reviews. Or other high-end measurements.
 

gvl

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I am not sure what I can expect but as far as I know most people expect to get perfomance similar with those of Amirs reviews.

It is similar, look at the second graph. Amir can’t possibly cover all possible measurement setups, and as you found out what you connect your gear to can make a difference.
 

Sokel

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I'm going to provide a summary from my end here. I don't think I'm being very helpful to Thomas_A, but perhaps somebody else will benefit from a wrap-up. Or, maybe somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong and everybody will gain from that. I would gain...

I connected up a system very similar to Thomas_A's:

iMac > USB hub > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA ADC > USB hub > iMac.

The results were shown in the red trace of the graph I posted earlier. No very useful for measurements, eh? I was ready to return the D10s, thinking I had a defective sample, but I pressed on.

I then connected a set-up like this:

iMac > (no USB hub external to the iMac) > D10s > Autoranger > E1DA > second iMac.

The second iMac was plugged into a different AC mains circuit across the room. The results looked different, but the SINAD was about the same. Still no good.

So, next, I replaced the second iMac with a MacBook Air running from its internal battery.

Perfect! Just like the black trace in the graph. I was ready to accept the need for using a battery powered laptop in conjunction with the E1DA ADC to make measurements.

Then, I tried adding a USB isolator between the USB hub and the D10s in the original set-up. Same results as with the battery powered MacBook Air. Eureka!

I declared success and built a more user friendly USB isolator, like in an actual case. That's what I use in the test system now. That's what is shown in the earlier graph - the test system with and without a USB isolator that I built myself. Objective graphical proof. A Topping HS02 gave identical results.

Then, I wondered if the same types of solutions would improve the sound in the living room music and movie system. On one hand, I knew that other system aspects might totally mask any improvement that could be measured. On the other hand, an actual listening system is far more complicated in terms of potential common mode current paths, so isolation might be a help there. I didn't buy anything new, just moved the isolation pieces down to the living room. Sure enough, there was a definite substantial improvement in sound quality. Enough so that I bought the pieces to add isolation to the living room system on a permanent basis. If there was no difference, I wouldn't have bothered adding complexity and spending more money. This was in an entirely different system using a different source computer, different cables, different DAC, and of course a preamp, power amplifier, and loudspeakers. I even applied the same techniques to the sound system attached to this iMac, which uses an Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt and some powered Emotive desktop loudspeakers. Big improvement here, too.

So, what else can I say? Maybe, my situation in all three systems is completely unique. Maybe not.

One last thing: I think it's always good to draw a detailed block diagram of any electronics system that shows all the connections between components. That way it's possible to really examine all the current paths, both desired and undesired. You certainly want to minimize the effects of undesired currents. Those paths are not always immediately obvious. The currents can be hard to measure, but the results show up at the output.
Ok,bear with me here.
The whole purpose and what we've been told all the time is that good devices are immune to PC problems,right?
So,what's expected is for them to work flawlessly under sensible conditions,sitting in a system.

What I do is measure them exactly as they sit.
And this "as they sit" is far from ideal test-bench measurement with the 20cm cables.

See the conditions below:

PC (with GPU card and everything powered by wall socket) > 3m USB cable > Khadas Tone1 (powered by Salas D on a different socket) >6 meters mic cable > E-MU 0204 (powered by the PC) >PC (the above.

No isolators,no nothing.
And I get this:


as is.PNG


So,despite the horrible conditions and the crappy 15 years old EMU,measurement is at lest decent,no big interference,no nothing.
The only special conditions is that the rig that powers my stuff here has it's own fuse on the el. board and I took good care of my grounds when I built this house.

So?
Where to search when real life conditions seem ugly?The DAC?The ADC?The house?
Measurements are useful to optimize a whole system,not isolate and make a device seem nice.

Edit as I saw the AVR thing,to make it even worst:
PC is also connected to TV via HDMI and TV is connected to pre's "processor in" via RCA.
 
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Thomas_A

Thomas_A

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It is similar, look at the second graph. Amir can’t possibly cover all possible measurement setups, and as you found out what you connect your gear to can make a difference.
Yes I can repeat similar results in ideal testing conditions. An important point is however that this may or may not be repeated in practic use, something that needs to be mentioned. Would I have bought this if I knew the results? Just a few dB better than my 20 year old DAC?
 

gvl

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Yes I can repeat similar results in ideal testing conditions. An important point is however that this may or may not be repeated in practic use, something that needs to be mentioned. Would I have bought this if I knew the results? Just a few dB better than my 20 year old DAC?

What’s ideal about your second experiment? As for your old DAC, chances are it distorts much more. The spectrum is pretty clean at -108dB THD even in your first measurement.
 
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Thomas_A

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What’s ideal about your second experiment?
It isolates the DUT for testing - comparisons to other tests like Amirs gets more similar.
 
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Thomas_A

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I thought you said the isolator made no difference?
Not with the Mac mini. For the Macbook loop the USB isolator is needed. @pma also found that.
 

jensgk

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In the first one:
Mac mini->D10s->E1DA->Macbook (battery). Result is exactly the same if I have an USB isolator with prong inserted or not.

The second one:
Macbook ->D10s ->isolator (powered two prong) ->E1DA -> Macbook. Macbook on battery. No signal through if I use non-powered isolator.
How does it look if you measure this:
Mac mini->D10s->E1DA->Mac mini
?
 

antcollinet

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Noise such as this is a system issue, not a component issue.

If I've understood your connection description correctly you have a ground loop:

Mac mini to AVR via HDMI - AVR to D10S(analogue) - D10S back to mac mini (USB). Presumably you also have a monitor or TV in the mix somewhere. If so, that brings in additional scope for ground issues.

Multiple component AVR installs are a nightmare for ground loops, since everything connects to everything else.
 
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Thomas_A

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Noise such as this is a system issue, not a component issue.

If I've understood your connection description correctly you have a ground loop:

Mac mini to AVR via HDMI - AVR to D10S(analogue) - D10S back to mac mini (USB). Presumably you also have a monitor or TV in the mix somewhere. If so, that brings in additional scope for ground issues.

Multiple component AVR installs are a nightmare for ground loops, since everything connects to everything else.
No. D10s is only to Macmini via USB not to AVR when I measure. Analogue out goes to E1DA to Macbook (battery). No ground loop.
 
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