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Topping D10s noise via Mac mini

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Thomas_A

Thomas_A

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I made a final measurement where I looped it through my AVR (NR1710) and used pre out to see how much noise and distortion is added when using the D10s as source. This is in direct mode, and with volume set around 66 on the preamp (so not standard 2.0 Vrms output, but lower). It does not help answering the 100 Hz noise but at least in this setting I get THD+N around -90 dB. This is sufficient for my needs when used in music mode. The NR1710 have other quirks when its digital processing is used. In direct mode you can make use of subwoofers/crossover without degradation, but not Audyssey.

Edit: Noise seems lower in this setup than with D10s to E1DA, strange perhaps.

via Nr1710.png
 
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CedarX

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Most all balanced inputs are wildly susceptible to the effects of impedance imbalance between the two polarities of the incoming signal with regard to CMRR. With balanced connections, often - not always - the two polarities are close in impedance relative to any common connection. But, with unbalanced outputs going into a balanced input, that's usually not so. I think the output impedance of the D10s is around 20 Ohms based on reports I've read. (Haven't measured it myself.) So, the source impedance for the positive polarity is 20 Ohms relative to pin 1 of the XLR connection you have and close to ZERO Ohms for the negative polarity.

balanced inputs are widely susceptible…”: can the ADC exacerbate the problem due to its (relatively low) input impedance? Besides your suggestions and @tonycollinet ones, would adding a high-impedance buffer in front of the ADC “fix” (really mask) the problem?
 

Sokel

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balanced inputs are widely susceptible…”: can the ADC exacerbate the problem due to its (relatively low) input impedance? Besides your suggestions and @tonycollinet ones, would adding a high-impedance buffer in front of the ADC “fix” (really mask) the problem?
Honest answer:
Can a poor I/O impedance ratio be responsible for so much elevated noise?
I thought it could only affect FR till now.
 

CedarX

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Honest answer:
Can a poor I/O impedance ratio be responsible for so much elevated noise?
I thought it could only affect FR till now.

Here we have… a 2-prong Mac Mini AC supply, a USB-powered D10S DAC, a single-end unbalanced (in regards to CMRR) D10S output, a Cosmos ADC with balanced inputs (~600 Ohm impedance), a floating ADC + MacBook that may very well show ‘some’ capacitive coupling impedance… On top of that, a Cosmos ADC eagle eyes thot enables noise measurements I could only read (or dream) about.
Everything is “floating”… No ground loop for sure! But is this the 0.1% case where general rules, such as poor impedance ratio only affect FR, need to be nuanced?
 

BKDad

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balanced inputs are widely susceptible…”: can the ADC exacerbate the problem due to its (relatively low) input impedance? Besides your suggestions and @tonycollinet ones, would adding a high-impedance buffer in front of the ADC “fix” (really mask) the problem?

For some background, I suggest you have a look a this: A Matter of Balance

There's other papers around on the subject, as you can imagine.

One executive summary point is that since bridge balance is a ratio thing, if you have a low input impedance ADC then in absolute terms its CMRR is more susceptible to degrading because of source imbalance than if the input impedance was higher. For example, a 1 Ohm imbalance of the source impedances is minor if the ADC input impedance is 1 Meg. If the ADC input impedance is 2K, that same 1 Ohm imbalance is relatively much higher.

A proper instrumentation amplifier with high CMRR in front of the ADC certainly helps. You could build your own or buy something that may offer other features, too. For example, Jan Didden's AutoRanger works really well with a Cosmos ADC. The plot I posted earlier was made with one of those in the system. But, AutoRangers are no longer made as far as I know. E1DA has a Cosmos Scaler available now that is similar and works well. There are other tricks around this problem, too.

Another point is that a lot of DACs don't work as well into 2K input impedance as they might into 10K or higher. So, the distortion or the noise might go up because of the load they're trying to drive. Especially the distortion.

I'm going to stay on this soapbox for a moment and say that most actual home audio system components don't have great CMRR at their inputs. They're definitely not as good as Audio Precision test systems in that regard. (!) So, although the AP systems do exactly what they claim and do a magnificent job of providing an ideal environment for testing gear, that isn't really representative entirely of how the device under test will get used. This is one of the limitations of most testing. You can test the gear under idealized conditions or you can test it under real world conditions. Those real worlds conditions vary all over the map, which makes it that much harder. Think of it like Formula 1 race cars. They do tons of testing in various labs and wind tunnels. Extreme amounts. Then, they put the cars on the track. Things change then.

Yeah, if every piece of audio gear was immune to its use environment, these challenges wouldn't be a thing. But, not too many people are willing to pay for the added circuitry and other stuff needed to make preamps and the rest impervious to source imbalances, for example. For one thing, they'd need true differential inputs and very high PSRR. Balanced inputs and outputs would helping that, too. None of those come for free. Plus, imagine the hurdles a manufacturer would have to overcome to convince people of the value of the higher priced solution. Higher priced not only for their products, but the solution may well require people to change cabling to something balanced, too. People already are skeptical about cabling, aren't they? (Rhetorical question...)

In a sense, this is why subjective testing is valuable. The gear is tested under actual system use. Of course, the opposite side of that is that the subjective observations may only be relevant for that one system combination. If that.

This all isn't so easy after all. But, then again, maybe it's all good enough for most people. (Most being anywhere between 90 and 99.99999% of the people. That's a different debate that I'm not qualified to talk about, so I won't.)
 

BKDad

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Here we have… a 2-prong Mac Mini AC supply, a USB-powered D10S DAC, a single-end unbalanced (in regards to CMRR) D10S output, a Cosmos ADC with balanced inputs (~600 Ohm impedance), a floating ADC + MacBook that may very well show ‘some’ capacitive coupling impedance… On top of that, a Cosmos ADC eagle eyes thot enables noise measurements I could only read (or dream) about.
Everything is “floating”… No ground loop for sure! But is this the 0.1% case where general rules, such as poor impedance ratio only affect FR, need to be nuanced?

Look more closely. There is at least one "ground" loop. (Ground is an awful term here. Better might be "common connection point.")
 

CedarX

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Look more closely. There is at least one "ground" loop. (Ground is an awful term here. Better might be "common connection point.")
@BKDad The D10S single end > Cosmos ADC balanced connection?
 

CedarX

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For some background, I suggest you have a look a this: A Matter of Balance

There's other papers around on the subject, as you can imagine.

One executive summary point is that since bridge balance is a ratio thing, if you have a low input impedance ADC then in absolute terms its CMRR is more susceptible to degrading because of source imbalance than if the input impedance was higher. For example, a 1 Ohm imbalance of the source impedances is minor if the ADC input impedance is 1 Meg. If the ADC input impedance is 2K, that same 1 Ohm imbalance is relatively much higher.

A proper instrumentation amplifier with high CMRR in front of the ADC certainly helps. You could build your own or buy something that may offer other features, too. For example, Jan Didden's AutoRanger works really well with a Cosmos ADC. The plot I posted earlier was made with one of those in the system. But, AutoRangers are no longer made as far as I know. E1DA has a Cosmos Scaler available now that is similar and works well. There are other tricks around this problem, too.

Another point is that a lot of DACs don't work as well into 2K input impedance as they might into 10K or higher. So, the distortion or the noise might go up because of the load they're trying to drive. Especially the distortion.

I'm going to stay on this soapbox for a moment and say that most actual home audio system components don't have great CMRR at their inputs. They're definitely not as good as Audio Precision test systems in that regard. (!) So, although the AP systems do exactly what they claim and do a magnificent job of providing an ideal environment for testing gear, that isn't really representative entirely of how the device under test will get used. This is one of the limitations of most testing. You can test the gear under idealized conditions or you can test it under real world conditions. Those real worlds conditions vary all over the map, which makes it that much harder. Think of it like Formula 1 race cars. They do tons of testing in various labs and wind tunnels. Extreme amounts. Then, they put the cars on the track. Things change then.

Yeah, if every piece of audio gear was immune to its use environment, these challenges wouldn't be a thing. But, not too many people are willing to pay for the added circuitry and other stuff needed to make preamps and the rest impervious to source imbalances, for example. For one thing, they'd need true differential inputs and very high PSRR. Balanced inputs and outputs would helping that, too. None of those come for free. Plus, imagine the hurdles a manufacturer would have to overcome to convince people of the value of the higher priced solution. Higher priced not only for their products, but the solution may well require people to change cabling to something balanced, too. People already are skeptical about cabling, aren't they? (Rhetorical question...)

In a sense, this is why subjective testing is valuable. The gear is tested under actual system use. Of course, the opposite side of that is that the subjective observations may only be relevant for that one system combination. If that.

This all isn't so easy after all. But, then again, maybe it's all good enough for most people. (Most being anywhere between 90 and 99.99999% of the people. That's a different debate that I'm not qualified to talk about, so I won't.)
Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer and the link to that (pun intended) paper. I humbly admit I don't fully grasp this CMR topic

@Thomas_A Sorry for hijacking your thread! I hope my questions have at least some relevance to your situation.
 

BKDad

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Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer and the link to that (pun intended) paper. I humbly admit I don't fully grasp this CMR topic

@Thomas_A Sorry for hijacking your thread! I hope my questions have at least some relevance to your situation.

Hey! That's how people learn new things. I can't speak for anybody else, but I know that I certainly did not discover any of this information on my own. Instead, I read what people knowledgable in the subject had to say.

I am really gratified to think that I may have helped you, even a little. Or, at least, that you are gracious enough to make me think so... :)
 

CedarX

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How about the "ground" connection at the ADC end?
The ADC "ground" is connected on one hand to the (floating) MacBook through the ADC USB cable, but also to the D10S "ground" through XLR pins 1 & 3 (2 paths): isn't it where this "ground" loop exists?
 
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Thomas_A

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Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer and the link to that (pun intended) paper. I humbly admit I don't fully grasp this CMR topic

@Thomas_A Sorry for hijacking your thread! I hope my questions have at least some relevance to your situation.
No problem. I read and try to understand. So this is mostly impedance matching issue?
 

CedarX

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I noted that @IVX reported in his Discord channel that the new Cosmos ADCiso, with its completely isolated input stage, may show 50/60 Hz + harmonics noise if the input "ground" is not tied to a real (e.g. grid) ground. Shorting the ADCiso USB data port "ground" with the USB power port "ground" fixes the noise issue (Comment: could it then create a ground loop issue?).

That would be similar to this D10S > ADC case and support @tonycollinet recommendations: Ground the DAC, Ground the ADC, then try grounding them both (or ground them together) as an easier fix than "balancing" the D10S (+) and (-) output impedances.
 

antcollinet

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The ADC "ground" is connected on one hand to the (floating) MacBook through the ADC USB cable, but also to the D10S "ground" through XLR pins 1 & 3 (2 paths): isn't it where this "ground" loop exists?
No, the pin 3 connection isn't a ground (at both ends) since it is connected into a (relatively) high impedance input.
 

BKDad

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