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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

Toni Mas

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I do find it disappointing that despite all the technical/scientific knowledge, it seems people haven't learnt the other aspect of science/engineering - working together calmly to fix problems, without starting hoodoo and conspiracy speculations.
And if someone is a little difficult, does that really mean we should go ham on them straight away?

In any case, I appreciate the analysis of this speaker. All that stuff is something I could fix up if I bought it. As for the waveguide leakage, perhaps that should be brought up with SB acoustics too as it won't just be happening in Sointuva speaker.
Well, this speaker makes use of extremely decent drivers, and the frequency and polar response measurements indeed tend to validate a competent work by the designer, so that I understand that the pickyness of the reviewer over emphasing minor or simply irrelevant issues is no more that a kind of... trolling/buzzing with a clear intention to confuse people with more limited technical background...
 

thin bLue

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As one who ordered Sointuva WG recently,
I believe Alan March can handle this and improve his own product to work as it designed.

This report would be huge support for do that. I hope this kind of review help Alan, Amir, Erin and whole audio community together and be their great resources.

Thanks for Nuyes and team a lot! Great job!

Especially, think of level of measurements and analysis, providing this grade of informations as open source is really hard decision.
 
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PeteL

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Excellent work, @Nuyes ! Thank you for your thoroughness, for documenting it in such detail, and for improving the speaker for its owner. This is a fascinating set of posts.

That said, with this promoted to the front page, I would urge that Nuyes' posts be edited and cleaned up.

I understand and appreciate that English is not Nuyes' first language. But still, as Nuyes has themselves admitted, there's a lot of strong, editorial judgments embedded in these posts, and some of them are just as lacking in empirical support as March Audio's emailed responses.

This is one of the very few things that drives me a little nuts about ASR, whose culture I generally feel is head and shoulders above that of many other online audio communities. Why make editorial comments about the issues with this speaker beyond what the facts show? Why attribute motives to Alan of March Audio that are not supported by the text of his email responses? Alan's emails are polite, include many phrases like "let's keep discussing," include an apology and partial refund about the binding-post issue, and include report-backs of his consultations with Purifi. The fact that Alan might not be aware of all the issues, and the fact that what Purifi told him might not be accurate or might not account for all of what Nuyes found, does not mean that Alan is making "totally false" claims, lying, trying to avoid responsibility, or dismissing Nuyes' findings. We have no idea about that.

Some of the issues here are clearly problems, and they should be called out as they have been, and should be rectified. Others are areas for improvement, and while they should be called out as well and pursued, they are not necessarily problems per se.

Alan and Erin were both banned, but not for anything having to do with their technical claims, ability to run measurements, or ability to design, create, or review quality products - so the fact that they were banned is completely irrelevant, except for the reason @abdo123 initially mentioned it: they will not be able to respond here.

In that respect, this kind of garbage comment is precisely what I am concerned about:


This is ridiculous, and totally misleading as to why Alan was banned. And everyone who clicked Like on it should take a step back and think twice about that.

The facts of Nuyes' investigation speak for themselves. IMHO there's no need to muddy the waters by editorializing, and it similarly adds nothing for some folks in the thread to be waving their engineer d**ks around piling on, which any honest person will admit is something that is happening as part (not all, but part) of this discussion.
I agree with most of that, I'd probably go one step further, there is the editorial commentary on manufacturer response, but even without, I am a bit uncomfortable with the ethics of taking private emails and broadcast them in the public space. As you said the review and process speaks for itself. If you email someone, we should feel that we are talking to that someone not that you are issuing an official public statement. Unless maybe hate mails, harassment or such I am ok with victims exposing these behaviors. But that's not what's here. Even tough it's probably legal, I guess once you click send it don't belong to you. I think privacy is an important virtue.
 

MAB

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Oh man I ordered these a month ago :S :S :S

They're not finished yet.

I don't know what to do.

Maybe I'll try to sell them when they arrive. :(
Despite some of the back and forth, these are not fatally flawed! In fact, they look really great after these flaws are addressed, even fantastic! All of them look like there is a simple remedy:
Good idea for a boiled-down list, and I think you've summarized it well. I would echo it and add as follows:

1. Insufficient internal damping: I would characterize this as a design opportunity (since as noted above this appears to be an industry-wide issue)
2. Screws inconsistently tightened: Major problem, easily addressed with improved QC
3. No sealant on binding posts: Manufacturing problem/oversight, absolutely needs to be corrected ASAP
4. Gap between tweeter and waveguide: Major problem, needs to be corrected with added sealant in manufacturing process
5. Use of some fasteners without locking "bulge" on the shaft: Seems to be a component-sourcing issue, needs to be corrected moving forward
I would add fasten the internal wiring consistent with being able to remove drivers and never having a chance of the wiring shifting to contact a driver or other surface. That needs to happen since some people will find a wire has shifted in their unit, it is just a probability given the wiring is left to chance...

Ask for these specific things to be addressed! I actually think the March will do that. If not, that would be interesting...
 

amirm

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For more details, see his video where he discusses the distortion measurements in detail, including the technical differences between his measurements and Amir's.
He made some misstatements there. I started showing distortion measurements using anechoic correction like he does. Here is an example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/genelec-8030c-studio-monitor-review.14795/
index.php


So it is not the case that I don't know how to do this or have not in the past (above review is two years old).

As I have explained before, I stopped doing it because the correction is small in my case and hence not material. The reason is that I use a very large space for my speaker measurements. Its volume is at least 4 to 5 times larger than Erin's. This pushes the modal response of the room way down, impacting distortion at very low frequencies where we don't care as much. So his comparison of anechoic vs not doesn't apply to my measurements.
 

amirm

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I do find it disappointing that despite all the technical/scientific knowledge, it seems people haven't learnt the other aspect of science/engineering - working together calmly to fix problems, without starting hoodoo and conspiracy speculations.
And if someone is a little difficult, does that really mean we should go ham on them straight away?
It wasn't a right away thing from my read of OP. Multiple rounds of measurements and correspondence with the company were performed, still not resulting in them accepting these issues straight and without pushback.
 

MZKM

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He made some misstatements there. I started showing distortion measurements using anechoic correction like he does. Here is an example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/genelec-8030c-studio-monitor-review.14795/
index.php


So it is not the case that I don't know how to do this or have not in the past (above review is two years old).

As I have explained before, I stopped doing it because the correction is small in my case and hence not material. The reason is that I use a very large space for my speaker measurements. Its volume is at least 4 to 5 times larger than Erin's. This pushes the modal response of the room way down, impacting distortion at very low frequencies where we don't care as much. So his comparison of anechoic vs not doesn't apply to my measurements.
Is it more of a hassle to do anechoic distortion?

BTW: Found your next product for review:
B69E3825-9D7C-4DD1-8A97-C01EFE1EF426.jpeg
 
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Axo1989

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Despite some of the back and forth, these are not fatally flawed! In fact, they look really great after these flaws are addressed, even fantastic! All of them look like there is a simple remedy:

I would add fasten the internal wiring consistent with being able to remove drivers and never having a chance of the wiring shifting to contact a driver or other surface. That needs to happen since some people will find a wire has shifted in their unit, it is just a probability given the wiring is left to chance...

Ask for these specific things to be addressed! I actually think the March will do that. If not, that would be interesting...

From photos I've seen (many of them here) the March amps are a pretty tidy build inside. It would be surprising if the speakers couldn't reach that standard.
 

Mario Sanchez

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Before burning anyone on a stake, let's see if Alan could get to repairing these production issues after they're exposed. Whether this is a common issue in production of Sointuva speakers, or a bronze sample scenario, the QC process of March Audio speakers deserve a second, closer look from the company.
I guess we could wait a few months, and someone could take their new-and-shiny Sointuva to test for these issue again. If it was fixed, then everyone's happy, if not, then we know which brand to avoid when we're looking for our next speaker.
 

amirm

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Is it more of a hassle to do anechoic distortion?
It is a manual step which is prone to mistakes. If it added something meaningful, I would do it but it doesn't as I explained.
 

amirm

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I agree with most of that, I'd probably go one step further, there is the editorial commentary on manufacturer response, but even without, I am a bit uncomfortable with the ethics of taking private emails and broadcast them in the public space.
No communication with a manufacturer from whom you bought a product is "private" information unless specifically agreed to. I have a number of times posted my frustrated chats with cable companies and such here. Nothing unethical about that. Companies need to know that anything they write in this context can be public information. Otherwise, we would be losing the side of the consumer. Members should be able to voice their frustrations with companies by proving them using such documentation.
 
OP
Nuyes

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Excellent work, @Nuyes ! Thank you for your thoroughness, for documenting it in such detail, and for improving the speaker for its owner. This is a fascinating set of posts.

That said, with this promoted to the front page, I would urge that Nuyes' posts be edited and cleaned up.

I understand and appreciate that English is not Nuyes' first language. But still, as Nuyes has themselves admitted, there's a lot of strong, editorial judgments embedded in these posts, and some of them are just as lacking in empirical support as March Audio's emailed responses.

This is one of the very few things that drives me a little nuts about ASR, whose culture I generally feel is head and shoulders above that of many other online audio communities. Why make editorial comments about the issues with this speaker beyond what the facts show? Why attribute motives to Alan of March Audio that are not supported by the text of his email responses? Alan's emails are polite, include many phrases like "let's keep discussing," include an apology and partial refund about the binding-post issue, and include report-backs of his consultations with Purifi. The fact that Alan might not be aware of all the issues, and the fact that what Purifi told him might not be accurate or might not account for all of what Nuyes found, does not mean that Alan is making "totally false" claims, lying, trying to avoid responsibility, or dismissing Nuyes' findings. We have no idea about that.

Some of the issues here are clearly problems, and they should be called out as they have been, and should be rectified. Others are areas for improvement, and while they should be called out as well and pursued, they are not necessarily problems per se.

Alan and Erin were both banned, but not for anything having to do with their technical claims, ability to run measurements, or ability to design, create, or review quality products - so the fact that they were banned is completely irrelevant, except for the reason @abdo123 initially mentioned it: they will not be able to respond here.

In that respect, this kind of garbage comment is precisely what I am concerned about:


This is ridiculous, and totally misleading as to why Alan was banned. And everyone who clicked Like on it should take a step back and think twice about that.

The facts of Nuyes' investigation speak for themselves. IMHO there's no need to muddy the waters by editorializing, and it similarly adds nothing for some folks in the thread to be waving their engineer d**ks around piling on, which any honest person will admit is something that is happening as part (not all, but part) of this discussion.

Thanks for the accurate point.
This is why I like ASR even though I'm not an English speaker.

ASR members are new to this post today.

Therefore, I fully understand that you may feel uncomfortable with the content that is somewhat critical and offensive towards a particular person.

But I want you to know that it has been a very long and painful process for 'Us'.

Based on the results alone, it may seem like a very simple process, but in reality it is not.

We've been trying to keep in touch with Alan through the actual speaker's owner and a member who's in the process of purchasing it, which includes all the key points posted in this post.

Contrary to his openness to discussing together, Alan repeatedly emphasized the driver's flaws and his know-how to overcome them, avoiding most problems.

Alan is the person who finished the mail with the 15% promotion of our March audio.


I also has a personal and ethical responsibility for disclosing some of his conversations with Alan.

However, I posted this content with at least the permission of the person in the mail, and since the content of the mail contains a lot of personal inquiries from buyers, including paint finish issues that have nothing to do with the performance of the speaker, it is currently impossible to disclose the full text of the mail.
 

F1308

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Nuyes, I was reading all your findings with utmost interest thinking this was a cheap loudspeaker.

Then I found this...

SOINTUVA WG SPEAKER (PAIR)
SOINTUVA-WG-PAIR
AUD $5,454.54

...and all the things they say and promise...


Confronting the facts, it turns anything promised or advertised is simply unbelievable, illusion turns a disaster, confidence is gone.

Then I went thinking there are indeed too many people around this business going the wrong way thinking easy money is easy to grab without realising that what they will finally achieve is simply that nearly nobody go spending more than just 19,99 $ in a pair of earphones and that is it.

State of the art... custom build....?
Leave me alone.
 
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Axo1989

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No communication with a manufacturer from whom you bought a product is "private" information unless specifically agreed to. I have a number of times posted my frustrated chats with cable companies and such here. Nothing unethical about that. Companies need to know that anything they write in this context can be public information. Otherwise, we would be losing the side of the consumer. Members should be able to voice their frustrations with companies by proving them using such documentation.

As I provide product/services to clients, I write my emails very carefully. Takes ages and is a pain in the arse really (makes them less friendly/personal too, which is kind of a shame) but it's essential.
 
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abdo123

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The impedance graph shows that there is now too much stuffing, if these are being kept and not returned it would be advisable to experiment some more.

View attachment 214926

I would be interested to know how you figured that out.

If it was a port i would say the tuning has changed but it’s not a port so i’m curious how you’re drawing conclusions from that graph.
 

MAB

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From photos I've seen (many of them here) the March amps are a pretty tidy build inside. It would be surprising if the speakers couldn't reach that standard.
I have a pair of March amps, they are really nicely put together and I have had no issues. The cases are really nice, and the innards look great. I totally agree that the issues with the speakers can all be addressed, little or no additional manufacturing cost.
 

olderman

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Final measure data


View attachment 214853View attachment 214854View attachment 214855



There was change in bass region as above


View attachment 214856


THD reduced a lot



View attachment 214857




As well as the THD, the multitone test result of the mid - bass frequency is also improved.

Finally all of the improvements were done, and “Sointuva WG - DC speaker gallery version” was safely returned to the owner’s hands.




So, to summarize, there is a problem caused by internal resonance which is worsened as it leaks through the gaps. But this could be drastically improved with sophisticated sealing at the binding posts and insert nuts, and additional absorption at the inside of the enclosure.

Last mystery:
Why did Erin unusually not include 86dB SPL THD data to Sointuva WG’s review?

- The End -
Great job. Very thorough!
 
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