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Sunfire Cinema Grand Review (5-channel Amp)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 101 59.1%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 56 32.7%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 10 5.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 4 2.3%

  • Total voters
    171

RichB

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As to the amp "doubling down", that's what gave the problem with the amp away. The fact that it did MORE than twice the power into 4 ohms as it did into 8 ohms AT CLIPPING is a sure sign that something isn't adjusted or tracking properly. Why Amir didn't catch this is beyond me.

Double down is advertised on the front on the amp - Load Invariant Five Channel Power Amplifier. :)
It seems to me that it is working properly, in that regard, anyway.

- Rich
 

Aw_dee_o

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So you are saying that you can alter the electricity after the incoming power supply and it will benefit the sound coming out of the speakers so that a person can hear the difference? I just want to make sure I understand you.
I am saying that a power cord can alter the the AC as fed into the device in a controlled & predictable fashion IF well designed. If the device the power cord is feeding doesn't have a well designed power supply and / or the AC feed into the power cord lacks purity of spectrum, such a power cord can be of benefit. The better the design of the power supply within the component, the less value an extremely well designed power cord has. That is, outside of being capable of delivering the required ampacity under any & all demands.
 

Doodski

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I am saying that a power cord can alter the the AC as fed into the device in a controlled & predictable fashion IF well designed. If the device the power cord is feeding doesn't have a well designed power supply and / or the AC feed into the power cord lacks purity of spectrum, such a power cord can be of benefit. The better the design of the power supply within the component, the less value an extremely well designed power cord has. That is, outside of being capable of delivering the required ampacity under any & all demands.
What's to stop a person from connecting their mains wiring directly to the component and bypassing all power cords? That negates any loss or benefit from a expensive power cord. I'm not seeing you address my previous question.
 

Spkrdctr

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I am saying that a power cord can alter the the AC as fed into the device in a controlled & predictable fashion IF well designed. If the device the power cord is feeding doesn't have a well designed power supply and / or the AC feed into the power cord lacks purity of spectrum, such a power cord can be of benefit. The better the design of the power supply within the component, the less value an extremely well designed power cord has. That is, outside of being capable of delivering the required ampacity under any & all demands.
OK, thanks! I will now go check out a different thread.......
 

Aw_dee_o

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What electrical characteristics make up a "filter"?

How physically long or big does a "filter" have to be?

Are all filters active or can they be passive?

If passive, is this not just a matter of juggling various power transfer characteristics to achieve desirable results?

Are there different levels of "desirable results"?

Could these "desirable results" pertaining to power transfer characteristics be manipulated within the confines of a power cord & the connector housings?

If I have to explain all of this to you, you're not nearly as bright or experienced as you think.
In fact, you're probably well below average in the field of audio & electronics design, engineering & repair.
It would be logical to surmise that you only know what they taught you in a textbook & even that is limited in scope & application.

I'm NOT trying to be, rude, condescending or a smart ass.
I'm trying to get you to think outside of the box that you have made yourself so very comfortable in.
The "naysayers" are also making a LOT of assumptions in a multitude of different areas.
Go back & read that sentence about not being nearly as bright or experienced as you think you are.

This is all VERY simple.
That is, IF you can look at AND understand the big picture.
 

SIY

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I am saying that a power cord can alter the the AC as fed into the device in a controlled & predictable fashion IF well designed. If the device the power cord is feeding doesn't have a well designed power supply and / or the AC feed into the power cord lacks purity of spectrum, such a power cord can be of benefit. The better the design of the power supply within the component, the less value an extremely well designed power cord has. That is, outside of being capable of delivering the required ampacity under any & all demands.
How stupid do you think your audience is here?
 

Aw_dee_o

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How stupid do you think your audience is here?
I think that they are less than educated and / or experienced if what I'm saying doesn't make sense.
Quite honestly, I don't care what their credentials or claims are if they can't grasp the points that I'm making.

Then again, this happens all of the time.
Have to walk in & show the manufacturers & their engineers how their own products work, how to correct issues, refine & simplify designs, improve performance, etc.... using their own test equipment in their own labs or on their own production lines.

When the "big wigs" ask why their own on-site "engineers" didn't identify / rectify certain issues or improve specific design attributes, it's always the same answer: "They did the best that they knew how". Their "big picture" is but one small window on the first floor of a multi-story building that reaches the sky. Their perspective was limited, so they worked with what they knew & could see. Familiarity breeds comfort, albeit limited on a grander scale.

We all have learning curves.
For many folks, their learning curve looks more like a line straight line once the books are closed / school is over OR they have a very slight rise that ascends at a linear rate.
This typically happens when people CHOOSE to become comfortable & get stuck in a rut.

Variety is both the spice of life & keeps one on their toes.
When we stop learning, it should be time to die.
So many folks die an early mental death, even though their bodies are still functioning.
Walking zombies if you will.
Many of those zombies even have degrees.
Degrees that taught them how to think & what to think about, because they never possessed the desire to think for themselves.

The box of their choosing is a coffin, but only for their own mental capacity & level of understanding.
Get outside of the "box" & start thinking outside of the "box".
No need for "snake oil".
Cognitive dissonance does a good enough job of squashing even very basic levels of growth & understanding.

This all acts as one big circuit. Small differences can add up, especially if performance in any given area is marginal.
The more foundational the change, the bigger the potential differences down stream.
No matter how polluted the river, even the simplest of filters can be beneficial.
Even more-so if there were no filters before it & the filtering after it is less than adequate.
Cascaded filtering can only be beneficial, so long as it doesn't restrict the volume of flow.

To increase the benefits of the filtering, one has to know what needs to pass through the filter unhindered.
Beyond that, anything that allows the desirable attributes to pass while limiting extraneous & unwanted characteristics is beneficial.
How beneficial depends on how broad spectrum the filter is, the ratio of filtration & whether or not filtration behind it can deal with what remains.
Either way, the filtration is beneficial, so long as it doesn't limit capacity and / or introduce toxins or side effects while filtering.
In fact, what most consider to be "side effects" of less than adequate conduction for audio signals lay the foundation & are the actual proper design criteria for a good power cord.
 

Aw_dee_o

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And if anyone wants further explanation that what I have provided above, educate yourself, buy some advanced & well calibrated test equipment & think / do / learn on your own. Nothing that I'm saying is new or not well understood. All quite basic & easy to understand when one stops making assumptions & realizes that not everything works exactly as thought in the real world.
 

RichB

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I think that they are less than educated and / or experienced if what I'm saying doesn't make sense.
Quite honestly, I don't care what their credentials or claims are if they can't grasp the points that I'm making.
To increase the benefits of the filtering, one has to know what needs to pass through the filter unhindered.
Beyond that, anything that allows the desirable attributes to pass while limiting extraneous & unwanted characteristics is beneficial.
How beneficial depends on how broad spectrum the filter is, the ratio of filtration & whether or not filtration behind it can deal with what remains.
Either way, the filtration is beneficial, so long as it doesn't limit capacity and / or introduce toxins or side effects while filtering.
In fact, what most consider to be "side effects" of less than adequate conduction for audio signals lay the foundation & are the actual proper design criteria for a good power cord.
The point is that the properly engineer amplifier does the filtering, not the power cord.

- Rich
 

Aw_dee_o

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The point is that the properly engineer amplifier does the filtering, not the power cord.

- Rich
That is the point and I acknowledged this in a previous post. I also specifically stated that most products are NOT properly engineered, can use some help & even gave specifics that could be added to any / all designs in that regards.

Even with a properly designed component, there are specific attributes that a power cord should demonstrate that most "off the shelf" designs do not achieve. There's more to power transfer than just low series resistance & ampacity in every case. How much one chooses to address these specifics and / or is willing to pay to do so is an individual choice. It need not be expensive nor "exotic" by any means though.

As a side note, you can see all kinds of 2nd & 3rd harmonic's generated WITHIN THE COMPONENT POWER SUPPLIES themselves as documented by John Atkinson in Stereophile. This is not to mention that there could be other "feed through" taking place in any given installation, depending on the spectrum & amplitude of the AC feed in that region.

Anyone that can view the spectrum of their individual AC feed in a safe & accurate manner should do so. To most, it would be a rather mind blowing experience. That "60 Hz sine wave" (50 Hz in Europe) is anything but spectrally pure. In some cases, it doesn't even really resemble a sine wave & the spectrum is insanely wide. This is why I suggested the use of "well tuned snubbers" in the rectification circuit, as they act as shunts. How much they shunt & where they start shunting is dependent on where the "snubbers" are tuned to & how they are designed. The fact that RF is superimposed on & can ride on DC after the AC is rectified shouldn't be news to anyone that has any type of broadband experience. The fact that many "experts" here aren't familiar with that aspect of operation is quite obvious by the responses I see posted here.

In most cases, "naysayer" is equivalent to "one who lacks understanding & denies the opportunity to understand due to cognitive dissonance". Anybody that is a TRUE "scientist" knows that the science is NEVER settled & is always looking for greater understanding in hopes of finding answers. After all, science is observable. Science is repeatable. That doesn't mean that everything is measurable at this point in time though. If it were, the science would be settled, and it truly isn't.
 

SIY

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I think that they are less than educated and / or experienced if what I'm saying doesn't make sense.
Quite honestly, I don't care what their credentials or claims are if they can't grasp the points that I'm making.

Then again, this happens all of the time.
Have to walk in & show the manufacturers & their engineers how their own products work, how to correct issues, refine & simplify designs, improve performance, etc.... using their own test equipment in their own labs or on their own production lines.

When the "big wigs" ask why their own on-site "engineers" didn't identify / rectify certain issues or improve specific design attributes, it's always the same answer: "They did the best that they knew how". Their "big picture" is but one small window on the first floor of a multi-story building that reaches the sky. Their perspective was limited, so they worked with what they knew & could see. Familiarity breeds comfort, albeit limited on a grander scale.

We all have learning curves.
For many folks, their learning curve looks more like a line straight line once the books are closed / school is over OR they have a very slight rise that ascends at a linear rate.
This typically happens when people CHOOSE to become comfortable & get stuck in a rut.

Variety is both the spice of life & keeps one on their toes.
When we stop learning, it should be time to die.
So many folks die an early mental death, even though their bodies are still functioning.
Walking zombies if you will.
Many of those zombies even have degrees.
Degrees that taught them how to think & what to think about, because they never possessed the desire to think for themselves.

The box of their choosing is a coffin, but only for their own mental capacity & level of understanding.
Get outside of the "box" & start thinking outside of the "box".
No need for "snake oil".
Cognitive dissonance does a good enough job of squashing even very basic levels of growth & understanding.

This all acts as one big circuit. Small differences can add up, especially if performance in any given area is marginal.
The more foundational the change, the bigger the potential differences down stream.
No matter how polluted the river, even the simplest of filters can be beneficial.
Even more-so if there were no filters before it & the filtering after it is less than adequate.
Cascaded filtering can only be beneficial, so long as it doesn't restrict the volume of flow.

To increase the benefits of the filtering, one has to know what needs to pass through the filter unhindered.
Beyond that, anything that allows the desirable attributes to pass while limiting extraneous & unwanted characteristics is beneficial.
How beneficial depends on how broad spectrum the filter is, the ratio of filtration & whether or not filtration behind it can deal with what remains.
Either way, the filtration is beneficial, so long as it doesn't limit capacity and / or introduce toxins or side effects while filtering.
In fact, what most consider to be "side effects" of less than adequate conduction for audio signals lay the foundation & are the actual proper design criteria for a good power cord.
So, the answer is that you think we’re too dumb to see through the kicked up dust.

You’re wrong.
 

Aw_dee_o

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So, the answer is that you think we’re too dumb to see through the kicked up dust.

You’re wrong.
Never said anyone was too dumb.
If that is what I thought, I would be wasting my time here, wouldn't I?
Remember, I gave credit where credit was due.
"They did the best that they knew how".

Most never looked for it because they were taught it didn't exist.
Once folks start looking, the increased level of understanding causes them to do further research.
When that happens, naysayers become believers.
Believers that have a firm grasp on understanding become educators, but at great potential personal risk to their own reputations.

Ask me how I know these things.
It would be due to my own personal experiences as a "naysayer".
I too had to unlearn conventional indoctrination while learning how to think, observe & learn for myself.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch. Never underestimate the grip it has on you.
 

Aw_dee_o

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So, the answer is that you think we’re too dumb to see through the kicked up dust.

You’re wrong.
As as far as "kicked up dust" go, the results on this amp prove you wrong. This is all quite real.

The power supply is not filtering & rectifying the mains to a high level of narrow band purity, so that distortion is passed into the active circuitry.
This lowers the resolution via an increased noise floor.
As Amir states, the problem & impurities escalate as frequency climbs.
This causes this specific component to perform quite poorly, very near the absolute bottom of the class.

Like I said, there's a LOT of info / red flags in these measurements for one to interpret. Unfortunately, most of those results / red flags were lost on those that don't know how to PROPERLY interpret them.

Don't be a naysayer.
Be a scientist.
 

Aw_dee_o

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Sorry, I'm too busy staring at the ground and drooling. I must be too pig-ignorant to see the brilliance of FUD.
Not going to argue with you. No need to when you state the Truth.

Others pointed out some red flags of this review & product along the way, but you weren't one of them. When highlighted & other factors discussed, you still deny the facts even though they are right there in front of you.

Remain a naysayer for all i care. Just remember that you have publicly demonstrated your own lack of integrity & desire to share & learn.

Maybe you should join Audio Science Deniers. Then you can all play in the "dust" that you stir up amongst yourselves.
 

SIY

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Not going to argue with you. No need to when you state the Truth.

Others pointed out some red flags of this review & product along the way, but you weren't one of them. When highlighted & other factors discussed, you still deny the facts even though they are right there in front of you.

Remain a naysayer for all i care. Just remember that you have publicly demonstrated your own lack of integrity & desire to share & learn.

Maybe you should join Audio Science Deniers. Then you can all play in the "dust" that you stir up amongst yourselves.
Yes, I lack integrity and desire to share and learn. That must be it.
 

BDWoody

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I'm NOT trying to be, rude, condescending or a smart ass.

Well, then that's particularly sad.

Nothing that I'm saying is new or not well understood.

You are correct, but it seems it isn't well understood by you.

This may not be the place for you. Maybe some time off will give you the chance to read and learn.
 

DonH56

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As as far as "kicked up dust" go, the results on this amp prove you wrong. This is all quite real.

The power supply is not filtering & rectifying the mains to a high level of narrow band purity, so that distortion is passed into the active circuitry.
This lowers the resolution via an increased noise floor.
As Amir states, the problem & impurities escalate as frequency climbs.
This causes this specific component to perform quite poorly, very near the absolute bottom of the class.

Like I said, there's a LOT of info / red flags in these measurements for one to interpret. Unfortunately, most of those results / red flags were lost on those that don't know how to PROPERLY interpret them.

Don't be a naysayer.
Be a scientist.
Uh huh. What is the definition of "high level of narrow band purity" from a power supply? Does the active circuitry have no PSRR?

"Impurities escalate as frequency climbs" -- research feedback and open-loop bandwidth for a cause more likely than a poor power cord.

Yes, I lack integrity and desire to share and learn. That must be it.
Me too, as well as lacking in the ability to PROPERLY interpret the measurements... :)

Time for a beer... Wait, I don't usually drink, and it's breakfast time, "snap, crackle, burp"?
 
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