Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[thecheapseats]

...It’s entirely up to you all to decide. Keep posting here and the thread lives on...

there's a magazine called 'stereophile'?... who knew?...

 

[teched58]

You have fast fingers. As soon as I hit post I changed my mind and deleted the post. But you caught me .

We have to decide as a group what we want this site to be. A Engineering and Scientific community or another form of Social Media where we get dramatic and make fun of others? This thread is just but one example of how the Social Media cancer spreads. As a Moderator I mostly observe and let you folks decide what you want to talk about. When I see this kind of activity in a subject like this I would be damned if I do and damned if I don’t close the thread as off topic.

It’s entirely up to you all to decide. Keep posting here and the thread lives on. Stop and the thread dies. The #1 biggest complaint is too many threads not about Engineering, Science and technical stuff. Just venting a little here.

This thread has 5k views and you're all hot to shut it down already? Many of us come here for BOTH the engineering AND the banter.

 

[Spocko]

You have fast fingers. As soon as I hit post I changed my mind and deleted the post. But you caught me .

We have to decide as a group what we want this site to be. A Engineering and Scientific community or another form of Social Media where we get dramatic and make fun of others? This thread is just but one example of how the Social Media cancer spreads. As a Moderator I mostly observe and let you folks decide what you want to talk about. When I see this kind of activity in a subject like this I would be damned if I do and damned if I don’t close the thread as off topic.

It’s entirely up to you all to decide. Keep posting here and the thread lives on. Stop and the thread dies. The #1 biggest complaint is too many threads not about Engineering, Science and technical stuff. Just venting a little here.

I think the banter is cathartic and not as toxic as it may well could become! And to your point about "Engineering and Scientific community", ironically, such communities can be no less dramatic and toxic than any other form of social media as we are human and many cannot divorce themselves from pride and bigotry regardless of any professional objectivity.

I'm definitely against any sort of bullying but the spectrum of drama is vast and as a Supreme Court Justice once described obscenity "I know it when I see it", so as with drama, at some point a thread becomes toxic and we'll know it when we see it.

 

[theREALdotnet]

This thread is just but one example of how the Social Media cancer spreads.

I get that, but don’t fret. Soon you’ll have fond memories of the social media cancer, when the AI generated content cancer comes around

 

[mhardy6647]

Haha, seriously though, tubes in small signal applications can be very linear and low noise. If you ran a decent triode at low anode voltage and with DC heating it would be just as good as anything else out there, except for the added cost, heat and required space.

My first oscilloscope was all tubes. It was a fine instrument.

umm... you're not going to get any argument from me!
Triodes in particular are wonderful and wonderfully linear things.

Several vacuum tube oscilloscopes here, too.
Personal fave (albeit not a 'daily driver' here)...

 

[SIY]

This is what you get if you add a tube input stage to the SS power amplifier which has respectable parameters alone.

View attachment 285164

More noise and distortion, same power. Maybe some audio poet could write an essay on the "new sound", however the difference is inaudible in the level matched A/B test.

No excuse for that performance. This isn’t a function of tubes in the input stage, it’s just a mediocre implementation of tubes. A decent designer can do one or two orders of magnitude better.

 

[DonH56]

umm... you're not going to get any argument from me!
Triodes in particular are wonderful and wonderfully linear things.

Several vacuum tube oscilloscopes here, too.
Personal fave (albeit not a 'daily driver' here)...

Fine for the day, but I'll take a modern 'scope... I spent way too many hours calibrating, and recalibrating, those old 'scopes. You need to leave them on for a few hours to a day, then cal, and leave them on until the tubes drift again. Some were better than others, but as a group I found them somewhat persnickety.

But the fading trace glow from the early "storage" 'scopes was something to see...

 

[teched58]

Jim Austin has issued a reply of sorts, as a comment to the Mastersound 845 review.

For his full comment, please click here. Here is most of it, save for an unrelated aside it had in it:


"I've noticed an interesting phenomenon: These comment threads are carefully monitored by denizens of a certain hi-fi discussion site. Whenever I write anything here, especially if it seems to contradict one of our reviewers, my comment is copied and posted on that other website and potshots are taken. Many of the posts are ignorant and poorly informed. Almost all are ungenerous. A few are intelligent enough but lack wisdom. I thought I'd write a little bit more and see if the new information provided here is conveyed.

I have no tubes in my main system. When I wrote what I wrote above, in my reply to JA1, I was not describing myself but others whose views I respect. I'm not a tube guy. My main reason is that tubes are unreliable, which undermines my confidence in my system: Do I have a tube going bad, or is it something I ate?

There are many passionate audiophiles--again, not me--who have been on a lifelong journey seeking the best sound--the most musically expressive, humanly communicative sound. They are like artists, or, at a minimum, seriously engaged art lovers, people for whom music is daily sustenance. They relate to their music (and musicians), via their hi-fi systems, in a deeply human way. A lifetime of listening has made them astute observers, far beyond what most of us, who dabble in a hobby and limit our thinking to DBTs, will ever achieve.

When they say there's something going on beyond second-order distortion and output-impedance-induced deviations from neutrality, I take that seriously. To repeat: This is worthy of respect.

In serious pursuit of a musical connection, some may choose to limit themselves to verifiable fact--to approach the reproduction of recorded music as if it were an intellectual exercise. Others treat it as an art form--one they are deeply committed to. In pursuit of connection to music, each approach has merit."

Jim Austin, Editor

 

[computer-audiophile]

They relate to their music (and musicians), via their hi-fi systems, in a deeply human way. A lifetime of listening has made them astute observers, far beyond what most of us, who dabble in a hobby and limit our thinking to DBTs, will ever achieve.

I think that's a very nice commentary. I feel somehow addressed.

 

[fpitas]

Wait...we're a hi-fi discussion site? We just listen to 1kHz tones into dummy loads.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I like the sense of humor of some.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

When they say there's something going on beyond second-order distortion and output-impedance-induced deviations from neutrality, I take that seriously. To repeat: This is worthy of respect.



Jim Austin, Editor

Is it? What if it's nothing but their imagination? All we ask for is some sort of effort to establish what's really behind the "something" that is going on - especially when various objective means seem to suggest that that something can't really be going on. I mean...particularly in light of the fact that some of the equipment being sold on the basis of that something isn't exactly inexpensive...

Also...There are many passionate audiophiles--again, not me--who have been on a lifelong journey seeking the best sound--the most musically expressive, humanly communicative sound. They are like artists, or, at a minimum, seriously engaged art lovers, people for whom music is daily sustenance. They relate to their music (and musicians), via their hi-fi systems, in a deeply human way. A lifetime of listening has made them astute observers, far beyond what most of us, who dabble in a hobby and limit our thinking to DBTs, will ever achieve...

Oh please...

 

[fpitas]

Is it? What if it's nothing but their imagination? All we ask for is some sort of effort to establish what's really behind the "something" that is going on - especially when various objective means seem to suggest that that something can't really be going on. I mean...particularly in light of the fact that some of the equipment being sold on the basis of that something isn't exactly inexpensive...

Also...There are many passionate audiophiles--again, not me--who have been on a lifelong journey seeking the best sound--the most musically expressive, humanly communicative sound. They are like artists, or, at a minimum, seriously engaged art lovers, people for whom music is daily sustenance. They relate to their music (and musicians), via their hi-fi systems, in a deeply human way. A lifetime of listening has made them astute observers, far beyond what most of us, who dabble in a hobby and limit our thinking to DBTs, will ever achieve...

Oh please...

He's simply writing to his audience. Can't really blame him, but can't take him seriously either.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Excuse me, but this is akin to saying, "I've never been abducted by a UFO, but some people said for years that they have. I take that seriously. To repeat: that is worthy of respect."

Both of these subjects have been refuted by science.
Both of these subjects have followers for whom science has incomplete answers.
Both of these subjects have adherents who are viewed askance.
Neither of these subjects are supported by data, but instead only by anecdote.
I believe they are both equally unworthy of respect ..... but that's just me.

Jim

Or at minimum worthy of at least as much skepticism as respect.

 

[fpitas]

It's a little disturbing that all these highly passionate sorts that search relentlessly for the ultimate sound never bother to learn anything about acoustics.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

He's simply writing to his audience. Can't really blame him, but can't take him seriously either.

I love the reference to those of us who "limit" our thinking to DBTs. Us silly objectivists with our obsession of wanting to do things that actually make for good sound rather than relying on guesswork and imagination fueled by cognitive bias. lol

 

[computer-audiophile]

It's a little disturbing that all these highly passionate sorts that search relentlessly for the ultimate sound never bother to learn anything about acoustics.

How do you know that?

 

[fpitas]

How do you know that?

They'd be here if they knew anything

 

[fpitas]

I love the reference to those of us who "limit" our thinking to DBTs. Us silly objectivists with our obsession of wanting to do things that actually make for good sound rather than relying on guesswork and imagination fueled by cognitive bias. lol

You can't blame him for dissing DBT. Talk about bad for business!

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

They'd be here if they knew anything

Looks like the quote there is attributed to the wrong guy...