Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[oleg87]

I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive.

True or not, this is not really the forum for subjectivist audiophile tea leaf readings.

 

[raif71]

I tend to agree both sides of the coin ie those that say there is no difference between good measuring DACs (when level matching is achieved, this is important!!) and those that say that DACs do sound different. To those that do voltage or volume level matching, kudos to you but you may be deluding yourself. To those that trust the ears and didn't do level matching well you may or may not want to do level matching if you're that pedantic but you can decide that for yourself. In my case, I have done the level matching and I do agree that DACs that have good measurements do sound the same but after that, do I maintain the two or more DACs setting that achieve the same sound? The answer is NO. All my DACs during normal play will have DAC mode setting or 0db on PRE mode. This is my way, sorry. With these settings no 2 DACs will have the same voltage level matching hence DACs will sound different.

Just showing that in normal playing mode, the DACs will be in "DAC" mode and they do sound different when switching back and forth. Not to mention, one is using RCA and the other is XLR connecting to the amp.

 

[unpluggged]

I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like.

The fact of the matter and an established consensus is that a DAC should not have any distinctive sound. If it has, that means the DAC is defective. Moreover, the DAC manufacturers themselves set the goal for the DACs to be as transparent as possible, otherwise they wouldn't be bragging about their measurements.

 

[Deleted member 81041]

Welcome to ASR,
"resistance is futile".

LOL, as I can see...

I can happily agree to disagree with others.

 

[Deleted member 81041]

The objective thing is if it does actually sound different or if your brain is tricking you because of the lack of blind-testing letting biases come into play. You can like the sound of a dac more than another but there might very well not be any audible difference at all.

Yes, until proper A/B testing is done, it's all hocus pocus, for sure.

 

[Deleted member 81041]

The car analogy doesn’t work. We understand how to measure a DAC. There isn’t some mystical property that eludes our understanding. Now, if you like an audibly distorted DAC, that’s fine. But you don’t hear a difference in audibly transparent DACs
You’ve been here at ASR for a day or two, I suggest you spend some time learning the science of audio reproduction and audibility.

I've been at this for decades. Please don't make ignorant assumptions of others. I may be new to this forum, but that leaves no excuse for your poor behavior.

 

[threni]

I've been at this for decades. Please don't make ignorant assumptions of others. I may be new to this forum, but that leaves no excuse for your poor behavior.

I don't see any poor behaviour on his part. I guess it's subjective though, right? We'll have to "agree to disagree".

 

[Deleted member 81041]

True or not, this is not really the forum for subjectivist audiophile tea leaf readings.

Wow, I am amazed at all the insults here. I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults. Guess not. I'm really sorry it's like this. Was more hopeful.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I've been at this for decades. Please don't make ignorant assumptions of others. I may be new to this forum, but that leaves no excuse for your poor behavior.

Wow, I am amazed at all the insults here. I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults. Guess not. I'm really sorry it's like this. Was more hopeful.

One of the tactics of trolls is feigned umbrage and indignation. You're surely not a troll ..... are you?

 

[unpluggged]

like adults

Then behave as one.

 

[SIY]

I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults.

Bring data.

 

[BDWoody]

If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different.

How's that? Assuming 'specs' means a meaningful suite of measurements shows them both to be competent and fit for purpose, where does the special sauce hide?

I've been at this for decades.

At what? Listening to music? So have we all. I've also been buying cars and driving for over 40 years, but that doesn't make me an expert driver or mechanic.

Wow, I am amazed at all the insults here. I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults. Guess not. I'm really sorry it's like this. Was more hopeful.

Must adults here prefer to discuss and debate that which is based on evidence. Anecdotal claims are often called out as such, and getting upset about that isn't going to help advance the discussion.

There is enough nonsense spouted in the rest of the audio community, so we try to be a voice of reason in a world that capitalizes on ignorance.

 

[olieb]

I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults.

Well, if you are behaving as an adult and you are at his for decades, but then come up with this:

I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact.

Then something is off.
It is more than dubious that this is a fact, at best it is a claim (yours). All scientific evidence points to the assumption that you are not talking about the sound (physical reality) but about your personal preference for a DAC, which might have all kinds of causes.
And being so long in this, you should know that. And if not, this is the place to get this knowledge.

 

[Killingbeans]

With these settings no 2 DACs will have the same voltage level matching hence DACs will sound different.

Sure, but by that definition two identical preamps with their volume knobs ind different positions wil also "sound different", so where does that leave us?

 

[solderdude]

BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different

Persons ears can be a real test but only under conditions that are almost never met.

DACs close in specs says very little, you need to have at least a minimal amount of comparable measurements to be able to say that. When the measurements fall within audibility thresholds I would not bet on them sounding different in a well performed blind test.

 

[JeremyFife]

I know a lot of people are saying R2R isn't as good for X or Y reason, and on paper yes, these are cold, hard facts. BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different. On that note, until my ears hear it, I'll never know how good (or bad) it is for me. Again, everyone has their own tastes. And to be honest, Topping tends to put out good quality stuff. So, it may sound, X, Y, or Z, but maybe some will like that. And yes, others will not. We can debate numbers and opinions till we are blue in the face, but until you hear it, it's all subjective. Kinda like not doing proper A/B tests when comparing DACs.....right?

Not really ...

Separate out subjective preference from objective measurement and we're there:
You can prefer one DAC over another - that's personal to you and is absolutely fine, no arguments, no problem.
Your preference is personal to you though, it's not transferrable and it means nothing to me.

Measurements state the performance of a DAC, you share the measurements with me in a meaningful way and we can agree that one DAC measures better than another. I might not prefer the better one, and again that's fine.

Where it all goes wrong is when anyone tries to say that their preference is in some way objective - that it can be used instead of measurements to say that one DAC is better than another. There is no basis for that, it doesn't make sense.

 

[SoonToBeRetired]

My question is: Why have more than one DAC in your system? I have the one, and I'm moving on....

 

[The Dunster]

Is there a minimum standard for a DAC's measured performance that once exceeded no person would be able to tell the difference anyway?
If so, is there any point in making a better measuring DAC if we can't hear the difference?

 

[ahofer]

Tapping the signs again.

People at ASR tend to view good sound as (for electronics) fidelity to signal, and speaker output conforming to Toole and Olive's research. If you like the sound distorted, less accurate, or prefer some other speaker presentation, that's fine, but own it, don't pretend a) lesser fidelity is greater accuracy or b) there must be something wrong with these standards because of your personal preferences or c)you can hear something that can't be measured. There's no need to rationalize your tastes.

Most of us also believe that the way to test for *strictly audible* differences is by properly executed and level-matched double blind procedures, or through taking measurements and recording a result above audible thresholds. The fact that you noticed a difference outside of these conditions simply isn't evidence of a difference in signal quality at your ears. Even if it is a difference in the signal, as opposed to some sighted bias, it is likely to be a difference in amplitude rather than something more subtle.

Finally, all of the above mistakes are simply human. No human being is so "experienced" or "trained', or "sensitive" as to be able to make sighted comparisons objectively.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

"Different" isn't better.

audiosciencereview.com

Ad Mysterium
A superset of Ad Quantum and Ad Materiae, in which previous examples of ‘settled science’ being unseated are trotted out as dispositive that this is going on in Audio, despite the lack of unexplained phenomena to explain in unsighted testing. Often supported with the Shakespeare quote from Hamlet “There is more on heav’n and earth..”, ignoring that the speaker is defending the existence of ghosts. He is also expounding on the limitless nature of human imagination, which is actually quite apt to high end Audio, as that’s where most high end differences appear to arise. Typically used to confuse the fact that measurements don’t explain everything we hear with the truth that measurements can describe everything in the sound wave (above and beyond what is audible).

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Finally, listening to music and buying hifi equipment does not constitute audiological or audio engineering 'experience', any more than attending the circus makes you a trapeze artist.

 

[ahofer]

Wow, I am amazed at all the insults here. I thought this was a forum where you could discuss and debate like adults. Guess not. I'm really sorry it's like this. Was more hopeful.

What insults?