Wow, now you guys are at 10,500 posts and still haven't "solved this problem". 
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How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?
- Thread starter Willhelm_Scream
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antcollinet
Grand Contributor
Which problem:Wow, now you guys are at 10,500 posts and still haven't "solved this problem".
1 - Do transparent DACs sound the same? - Solved decades ago, and answered multiple times in the first few pages.
2 - The one of newbies coming in and needing it explained all over and over again? No and never will be. Newbies are one of the world's few inexhaustible resources.
Oh, and... err....
... right back atchja. 
ObiWanKenobi
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Patience should be another inexhaustible resource—otherwise, how would forums like this ever grow for us newbies?Which problem:
1 - Do transparent DACs sound the same? - Solved decades ago, and answered multiple times in the first few pages.
2 - The one of newbies coming in and needing it explained all over and over again? No and never will be. Newbies are one of the world's few inexhaustible resources.
Oh, and... err....
Funny you're replying to this as I thought you are over it by now.
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I think that's enough of this back and forth. move the discussion on please .
@Mr. Widget @antcollinet @ObiWanKenobi
Adding to a thread by discussing the value of adding to a thread adds no value to anyone.
@Mr. Widget @antcollinet @ObiWanKenobi
Adding to a thread by discussing the value of adding to a thread adds no value to anyone.
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antcollinet
Grand Contributor
I don't think patience has ever been inexhaustible for anyone. However, there are 10,500 posts of mostly patience in this thread alone, of which my post #10,499, and my other posts in this thread are just a few tiny examples. So far patience has (as a rule) kept up with the flow of newbies, though it does tend to wear thin with the newbies who show themselves to be just common or garden trolls.
Can't fault that logic
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Deleted member 81041
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I know a lot of people are saying R2R isn't as good for X or Y reason, and on paper yes, these are cold, hard facts. BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different. On that note, until my ears hear it, I'll never know how good (or bad) it is for me. Again, everyone has their own tastes. And to be honest, Topping tends to put out good quality stuff. So, it may sound, X, Y, or Z, but maybe some will like that. And yes, others will not. We can debate numbers and opinions till we are blue in the face, but until you hear it, it's all subjective. Kinda like not doing proper A/B tests when comparing DACs.....right?
If they are different, you can measure it. Usually the methodology of the measurements are debated not the idea that the difference can’t be measured.
But the pretty thing about this development initially is that Topping could’ve been the best performing, reasonably priced R2R DAC option with good SINAD exceeding that of May.
This would have ended most of the debates, as you can now buy any type of DAC you’d like with good measurements and price. But alas it’s not to be.
No, your ears aren’t as discriminating as measurements for a DAC.
It’s not subjective - it’s science and engineering
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Deleted member 81041
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I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive.
Soria Moria
Addicted to Fun and Learning
The objective thing is if it does actually sound different or if your brain is tricking you because of the lack of blind-testing letting biases come into play. You can like the sound of a dac more than another but there might very well not be any audible difference at all.I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive.
The car analogy doesn’t work. We understand how to measure a DAC. There isn’t some mystical property that eludes our understanding. Now, if you like an audibly distorted DAC, that’s fine. But you don’t hear a difference in audibly transparent DACsI'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive.
You’ve been here at ASR for a day or two, I suggest you spend some time learning the science of audio reproduction and audibility.
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Welcome to ASR,
"resistance is futile".
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
True or not, this is not really the forum for subjectivist audiophile tea leaf readings.I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive.
raif71
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I tend to agree both sides of the coin ie those that say there is no difference between good measuring DACs (when level matching is achieved, this is important!!) and those that say that DACs do sound different. To those that do voltage or volume level matching, kudos to you but you may be deluding yourself. To those that trust the ears and didn't do level matching well you may or may not want to do level matching if you're that pedantic but you can decide that for yourself. In my case, I have done the level matching and I do agree that DACs that have good measurements do sound the same but after that, do I maintain the two or more DACs setting that achieve the same sound? The answer is NO. All my DACs during normal play will have DAC mode setting or 0db on PRE mode. This is my way, sorry. With these settings no 2 DACs will have the same voltage level matching hence DACs will sound different.
Just showing that in normal playing mode, the DACs will be in "DAC" mode and they do sound different when switching back and forth. Not to mention, one is using RCA and the other is XLR connecting to the amp.
Just showing that in normal playing mode, the DACs will be in "DAC" mode and they do sound different when switching back and forth. Not to mention, one is using RCA and the other is XLR connecting to the amp.
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unpluggged
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The fact of the matter and an established consensus is that a DAC should not have any distinctive sound. If it has, that means the DAC is defective. Moreover, the DAC manufacturers themselves set the goal for the DACs to be as transparent as possible, otherwise they wouldn't be bragging about their measurements.
D
Deleted member 81041
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D
Deleted member 81041
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Yes, until proper A/B testing is done, it's all hocus pocus, for sure.
D
Deleted member 81041
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I've been at this for decades. Please don't make ignorant assumptions of others. I may be new to this forum, but that leaves no excuse for your poor behavior.
I don't see any poor behaviour on his part. I guess it's subjective though, right? We'll have to "agree to disagree".
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