PS Audio PMG Signature

[Liberal Democracy]

Well this threads turning out to be a real Tonic . Thanks Alan for the OP, massive thanks to Chris from PS audio for engaging so productively and of course Amirm for making it all possible.

I Look forward to the fruits of all this playing out over the coming weeks . Technical engagement held in good faith between ASR and manufacturers , all in the open , with fantastic access for punters and enthusiasts.

Fantastic.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Excellent. If you need my actual project files, start a conversation with me and I will share them out for you.

Hi Amir! I private messaged you on this forum about this. I'd love to mirror some of your tests to make it easy for your forum members to compare things apples-to-apples so the project files would be awesome.

 

[egellings]

If it actually meets those specs, so what? The human ear will not be able to tell the difference once a level of performance well below that is achieved. It's like asking for a drop forge when a tack hammer is all that's needed. Kudos to the designers able to produce something with that level of performance, but it doesn't audibly matter any more. The race is over. You've cross the finish line. Stop running. There's no point in it anymore. It's like asking for a pound of hamburger meat to be weighed out to the nearest microgram.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

If it actually meets those specs, so what? The human ear will not be able to tell the difference once a level of performance well below that is achieved. It's like asking for a drop forge when a tack hammer is all that's needed. Kudos to the designers able to produce something with that level of performance, but it doesn't audibly matter any more. The race is over. You've cross the finish line. Stop running. There's no point in it anymore. It's like asking for a pound of hamburger meat to be weighed out to the nearest microgram.

Well, the subject of audibility and psychoacoustics is a good one to discuss. Maybe for another thread?

 

[MaxBuck]

It’s probably a very decently designed kit almost as good as say, Topping and just ten times the price.
Keith

For many people of sufficient means, it will be a desirable attribute that the PS gear is manufactured in the USA rather Communist China.

 

[kyuu]

For many people of sufficient means, it will be a desirable attribute that the PS gear is manufactured in the USA rather Communist China.

Well, my ethical system values supporting American manufacturing less than it loathes supporting grifters taking advantage of consumer ignorance to sell things at absurd markups. That's just me though.

 

[unpluggged]

For many people of sufficient means, it will be a desirable attribute that the PS gear is manufactured in the USA rather Communist China.

Ethical mindset does not necessarily come with wealth.

 

[Cbdb2]

Ethical mindset does not necessarily come with wealth.

There kinda mutually exclusive.

 

[Cbdb2]

It’s explained above that the op amp hits 150 dB SINAD not the entire setup with gain.

Lets see those measurements.

 

[Cbdb2]

Paul significantly misspoke on the website and in his launch presentation

So he was either deliberately lying or he knows very little about audio.

 

[yonigta]

Hello ASR members,

I am the current owner of the first DirectStream DAC, and unfortunately I have been disappointed with its performance. In my system, any source connected directly to the preamplifier provides a better result than when routed through the PS Audio.

I paid a little over 6,500 euros here in Spain, which makes the outcome even more frustrating. To my ears, the DAC delivers a low output level, an opaque presentation, and lacks transparency and dynamics. In comparison, the RME ADI-2 provides a much more satisfying and engaging listening experience.

While I appreciate the brand and the people behind it, I don’t see myself returning to PS Audio after this experience. At this price point, one expects at least part of the promised “nirvana,” but what I hear is an analog-like character with insufficient detail, liveliness, and overall musicality.

Is it really so difficult to engineer a DAC that gets these fundamentals right?
Yonatan

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm not into this kind of "audiophile price" stuff but it's hard to believe there's actually anything wrong with it...

With solid state electronics it's usually cheap-and-easy to make something better than human hearing. (It can be a bit more difficult and expensive with high gain microphone or phono preamps, or if you want lots of wattage. And cheap-and-easy does NOT apply to speakers.)

In my system, any source connected directly to the preamplifier provides a better result than when routed through the PS Audio...

...To my ears, the DAC delivers a low output level, an opaque presentation, and lacks transparency and dynamics.

Low output could be an issue if you don't have enough analog gain, or if with additional gain/amplification you might get audible noise from the analog electronics. The output voltage can easily be measured and noise can either be heard or not.

If there is something vague or not directly measurable like "transparency", "opaque presentation" or "dynamics", those perceptions are simply not reliable without proper level-matched Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests such as ABX.

BTW - Almost all electronics are linear which means the dynamics are not altered. A dynamic compressor (or expander) requires special circuitry or special software and it simply doesn't happen "accidently". Unless you overdrive an amplifier (or something) into clipping (distortion) which is a very bad kind of dynamic compression. But it's heard as "distortion" rather than a loss of dynamics.

 

[yonigta]

Under the same conditions, I can say that the PS Audio not only sounds lower but also worse. It’s true that if you don’t listen to anything else you could be happy, but I assure you there’s no need for ABX testing to notice the difference…

My system:
Purifi 9040BA from Audiophonics, Copernic 211
Speakers: JBL 4315B, Allegro by Ramallo
Preamps: Densen B275, Classe DP800, Copernic Audio, Adcom 750
Etc., etc., etc.

Today I connected the PS Audio directly to the Purifi amps, and the highs were hissing, something that doesn’t happen with other equipment. But that’s not the problem. The problem was still the lack of transparency—measurable or not, it’s noticeable by ear, and that should not happen compared to other DACs that are much cheaper. It’s a lot of money and a lot of excitement invested.

By dynamics I mean the sound feels slower, it doesn’t have the speed or immediacy of other digital sources, even if it gives a more analog-like presentation. That’s what I perceive…

Thanks.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Hello ASR members,

I am the current owner of the first DirectStream DAC, and unfortunately I have been disappointed with its performance. In my system, any source connected directly to the preamplifier provides a better result than when routed through the PS Audio.

I paid a little over 6,500 euros here in Spain, which makes the outcome even more frustrating. To my ears, the DAC delivers a low output level, an opaque presentation, and lacks transparency and dynamics. In comparison, the RME ADI-2 provides a much more satisfying and engaging listening experience.

While I appreciate the brand and the people behind it, I don’t see myself returning to PS Audio after this experience. At this price point, one expects at least part of the promised “nirvana,” but what I hear is an analog-like character with insufficient detail, liveliness, and overall musicality.

Is it really so difficult to engineer a DAC that gets these fundamentals right?
Yonatan

The preamp, the subject of this thread measures quite well and you are now discussing a ~10 year old DAC design (we have since released the DirectStream MkII and now PMG DAC) with improved performance.

The original directstream DAC was incredibly popular and we sold many thousands of them. The do have some coloration because of some of the design decisions to use an output transformer as part of the low-pass filter for converting the DSD output signal to analog.

Part of the reason to move away from using Ted Smith to engineer the DACs at PS audio was because we wanted to improve the performance further beyond what the original direct stream design allowed for.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi Amir! I private messaged you on this forum about this. I'd love to mirror some of your tests to make it easy for your forum members to compare things apples-to-apples so the project files would be awesome.

That would be awesome. I doubt that you will gain many 'value for money ' points here, but good kit makes good music and I'm all for that. If PS can reach a different audience than ASR, and spread the word about the value of measurements then that would be truly excellent.
Thank you for clarifying the initial misleading sales pitch, that's really appreciated.
It takes a bit of nerve to lift your head above the ASR parapet and represent PS - kudos for that. Your attitude, and measurements, helps!

 

[kyuu]

"Elderly scammer", come on man

Are you objecting to the "elderly" label, or the "scammer"?

 

[kyuu]

Calling a poster "elderly" is relevant, how? I might insult your ethnic heritage if your comments depend on personal insults. And I do take it as an insult when you add "scammer" to it --as-- your intent is clear.

So, two things:

1) I'm not the one who made the "elderly scammer" comment. I don't feel that it's unfair, though, even if the age of the scammer is really neither here nor there.

2) We have a number of reviews of PS Audio products here. We have a good idea of what the products do and don't do, so kindly don't come at this with that silly "you have no personal experience therefore you can't comment". We also can see the videos he releases for ourselves to know if he is promoting BS or not. Spoiler: he mostly promotes BS.

 

[Chrispy]

Lovely. My experience with some products you recommend is frankly lousy, while my experience with all PS Audio products I have is good to excellent. We have a difference of opinion as to what sounds good and why. I happen to be a fan of products that have a more musical mid range (like Cambridge Audio and PS Audio) than more etched or analytical. I am also a fan of Legacy and Avalon Acoustics speakers for this reason. I have multiple systems in different setups, these range from high-end tube based to relatively inexpensive 1/2 rack width Parasound Z amps and pre's. They all sound different, and they all benefit audibly from the use of clean Power Plant power -- versus any of the power conditioners I used. I've done the blind tests with literally scores of people who are mostly audiophiles. We know what it sounds like, you know what your meters tell you. peace

LOL

 

[Beave]

LOL indeed. I think he got lost and thought he was back posting on Audiogon forums, where insane claims are met with approval.

 

[Chrispy]

LOL indeed. I think he got lost and thought he was back posting on Audiogon forums, where insane claims are met with approval.

It's all in that musical mid-range....depends how far it ranges from chocolatey.