PS Audio PMG Signature

[Chrispy]

Maybe it's the usual bullshit "technology" that PS is famous for.

 

[Adis]

Probably.

 

[unpluggged]

Please be kinder to industry people who despite some resentment from us, still come and give us information. I read Chris' post as genuine and no attempt at anything.

Agreed. I'll try to be more tolerant and restrained.

 

[Digital_Thor]

One of my friends have McIntosh gear and a turntable, with tubes, output transformers and swinging VU meters - you know - all the charming stuff. It's fine sounding, but not better or worse - subjectually - than so much else - just different.

He's happy with it, like the looks and it gives him a feeling of ownership, that Sonos people would never understand.

Hey, a Rolex is not gonna tell the time any better than any other watch, but we both know the resale value difference over time, which definitely also helps with guarantee and repairs - which McIntosh seems good at.

So I believe it is a total package of ownership, preference and market value, that comes more into play, than just pure raw performance.

Funny thing though, after hearing my DIY gear, he asked me how that play's so well, and now that he asked and opened up, I've helped him to add a 4 channel DSP, that EQ both his JM-lab mains and the two subwoofers - SVS tube and Klipsh - which I told him is the way to 'clean' up his total system response.

It works pretty well, and most listeners coming by, still just see those VU meters and the spinning turntable, never truly understanding or knowing what 'modern' techniques do to sound - because - it's the tubes man, oh that smooth analogue sound

 

[Digital_Thor]

To sum it up. My system might be technically better, but in case of market value... He has money in the bank, and I have a full dumpster

 

[Old_School_Brad]

So, I'm the speaker guy for PS.

Paul significantly misspoke on the website and in his launch presentation and this will be corrected shortly. He's currently vacationing in Europe to see his oldest son and grandkids.

The table of specs are correct but were based on a prototype unit and there may be a couple of small tweaks as the production units measure a tad better.

We've spent a few years developing these as a company so I'm not sure how this happened but we'll make sure everyone knows the correct specs on this piece and we publish some AP measurements. It might not be quite as comprehensive as Amir's but I think we'll have plenty of additional info.

No the product doesn't have 150 db SINAD or even 150 dB noise floor. The discrete opamp that this preamp is based on has about 150 dB nosie floor in unity gain on it's own but in the design (with up to 12 dB of gain), 12 dB less feedback is used and the volume control circuit zero crossing detection (while a very good volume control) still dominates some of the performance. Noise floor is around -145, and overall performance is very good/excellent. As I recall, SINAD is ~115 dB range but I'll need to double check the exact spec. Channel separation is extremely high

Darren is no longer at PS (as of about 2 years ago) but has helped make sure his designs made it into product as intended.

The foundation of the preamp is a custom opamp design that's a unique current feedback design where the feedback path to the current node is buffered and the open loop performance is inherently very linear, so not a ton of feedback is used. Having flat distortion versus frequency was a goal of this preamp and this flat distortion vs frequency characteristic extends to 50 kHz. Low phase shift and wide bandwidth was a goal and there is ~500 kHz bandwidth.

We actually have a lot to talk about with the preamp tech and its a well through through and refined sounding design (and a huge step up from our previous tube "BHK" model), In my opinion.

Regarding the DAC, it's a somewhat similar approach to our previous DAC model (but the engineering was done by Doug Goldberg and Bob Stadtherr). It's a 1-bit DSD DAC where everything upsampled to DSD512 (though there are menu settings for 128fs and 256fs) and that does into a 64 tap FIR filter run through a small FPGA into an analog lowpass filter and eschews to use of the transfer approach that our previous DAC engineer Ted Smith used as part of the inductance in the lowpass filter).

The net result is a significantly improved objective performance versus our previous DAC with about 20 dB better SINAD at around or just over 100 dB (I need to look at the final measurements, as this isn't my project). We're using a Crystek ultra low phase noise femptoclock and advanced clock distribution chip and getting very good jitter performance. (around 2 picoseconds typical).

Do I think this will suddenly win over the ASR crowd? No. Though I do low the new analog and phono preamp in particular (which are Darren's work). They're a substantial step up for us as a company and the chassis are beautifully made and I hope people will really like them.

I'm sorry for the confusion and I'm going to work with Paul and our web team to get the mistakes corrected.

Great of you to drop by and share this unique insight -much appreciated!

 

[Purité Audio]

It’s probably a very decently designed kit almost as good as say, Topping and just ten times the price.
Keith

 

[Leeken]

It’s probably a very decently designed kit almost as good as say, Topping and just ten times the price.
Keith

And like a lot of other equipment ,noise and distortion is likely inaudible to anyone other than Rob Watts,so bravo to them ,as for price,I don’t give 4x to price,this is audio science review,not pounds per sinad top trumps! Choose your budget,choose your poison,no one’s getting killed by what they choose! (Although focal kantas had a good go at deafening me!)

 

[DSJR]

It’s probably a very decently designed kit almost as good as say, Topping and just ten times the price.
Keith

But people looking at this new range wouldn't probably even know about ASR, Topping products and similar, let alone think of buying any. Pride of ownership has a lot to do with it all and if PS 'do what Schiit have done so successfully' and genuinely improve the tech design side (and arguably sound quality too in subtle ways) while presenting good documented evidence of performance in the marketing, then great for them. No matter that a good line stage can be done with a cheap ic with a handful of passive components and simple 'clean' power supply, the market here wants a story, great looks and a 'feel good' factor to justify the money invested. If they get seriously good performance as well, then go for it

 

[Purité Audio]

I have no issue with a ‘pride of ownership’ product, my concern is that it will be implied in its marketing that it is somehow ‘better’ than another, less expensive audibly transparent component.
Keith

 

[JustJones]

I'm still confused by them all saying "sold out" . Are these components limited run and were sold out by pre orders or are they not yet for sale and using sold out as a place holder which makes no sense just use " coming soon" ?

There's 4 of these Signature Series components at $8500 each and they all appear to be sold out. Must be a hit.

 

[Astoneroad]

Please be kinder to industry people who despite some resentment from us, still come and give us information. I read Chris' post as genuine and no attempt at anything.

Paul is an elderly, non engineer, speaking about detailed specs... it's not hard to imagine that he misspeaks often... and that his team are used to apologizing or covering for him. Of the two, admitting and apologizing is the more transparent option that his team has, imo. I also see Chris' post as genuine.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Here's a few measurements taken in a similar method to what Amir does in his preamp reviews.

SINAD is shown with the preamp in unity gain, 4V input, 4V normalized to ) 0 dB, 32k FFT 3 averages etc.

Distortion vs frequency is flat vs frequency (to about 50 kHz). 90 kHz measurement bandwidth and 4V input shown.

Cross talk performance is quite good.

I'm going to work with our chief engineer to few more measurements added in here in the next couple of week (after I get back from a business trip to China) and get a PDF up on the website (along with the copy changes to the text with the incorrect numbers, which should happen sooner).

 

[wwenze]

SINAD is shown with the preamp in unity gain, 4V input, 4V normalized to ) 0 dB, 32k FFT 3 averages etc.

?

Overall equipment gain, or amplifier close-loop gain?

 

[Gyosa1]

Sheesh …
$8k+….

I doubt it sounds $6k different/better than a Eversolo dmpA8…. Or A6 .

No thanks ..

Bk

 

[amirm]

Here's a few measurements taken in a similar method to what Amir does in his preamp reviews.

Excellent. If you need my actual project files, start a conversation with me and I will share them out for you.

 

[Martin]

Here's a few measurements taken in a similar method to what Amir does in his preamp reviews.

SINAD is shown with the preamp in unity gain, 4V input, 4V normalized to ) 0 dB, 32k FFT 3 averages etc.
View attachment 445856

Distortion vs frequency is flat vs frequency (to about 50 kHz). 90 kHz measurement bandwidth and 4V input shown.

View attachment 445857

Cross talk performance is quite good.

View attachment 445858

I'm going to work with our chief engineer to few more measurements added in here in the next couple of week (after I get back from a business trip to China) and get a PDF up on the website (along with the copy changes to the text with the incorrect numbers, which should happen sooner).

Excellent. If you need my actual project files, start a conversation with me and I will share them out for you.

Nice. So it hits the 110dB SINAD Amir calculated from the THD+N specs. Under what conditions does it hit 150dB SINAD?

Martin

 

[GXAlan]

Here's a few measurements

Cross talk performance is quite good.

View attachment 445858

That’s super impressive. The Topping Pre90 does great at the 1 kHz SINAD, but the crosstalk for something like the Topping drops to -90 dB or so at 20 kHz.

Under what conditions does it hit 150dB SINAD?

It’s explained above that the op amp hits 150 dB SINAD not the entire setup with gain.

 

[amirm]

FYI it is not possible to measure more than 122 dB or so SINAD on AP. To measure anything approaching 140 dB, you would need a noise amplifier. Topping uses such and advertises something similar.

 

[Chrispy]

FYI it is not possible to measure more than 122 dB or so SINAD on AP. To measure anything approaching 140 dB, you would need a noise amplifier. Topping uses such and advertises something similar.

Let alone that it doesn't particularly matter in any reasonable scenario