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Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)
- Thread starter echopraxia
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #122
I’m sorry this thread has not been providing the entertainment value you so desire. After all, my primary desire when starting this thread was to cultivate the entertainment of readers to the maximal extent, rather than to gather/exchange objective data, knowledge, and advise relevant to my particular situation and purchasing decision.
Joking aside, please provide a link to measurements of your suggestion, or its not worth posting here or anywhere on this science/measurements-focused forum.
Here you go, not as methodical as S&R, but I don't really believe measurement tell full story of speakers, like I already said, KH310 measures better than 8351A, but I like the Genelec more.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/psi-audio-a23-m
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/danley-studio-2.13208/
Danley Studio Two just came out. A powered speaker with passive XO, yes, but Danley is one of the leading engineering-focused firms out there with its Synergy design. Alternatively, a more traditional Danley horn (preferably with subs) - SH-50 is quite popular with home audio. The Danley thread also mentioned Ocean Way HR-4/5 with matching subs (HR-5 is on the way to be measured by Amir). Unusual wide baffle design with midwoofer and tweeter horns, that would promise high SPL and directivity control if done well.
I would personally hold off on Neumanns. With the KH80DSP out I have no doubt they are going to expand the DSP platform to the larger speakers in the line, so the 420 are probably quite close to EOL. The KH80 is noticably more linear within its passband than the (already-excellent) larger speakers in the line.
The 8361s would definitely make the most sense - new release from an established brand's state-of-the-art lineup that has just reached maturity (8351A's problems seem to be almost eliminated). Then come the usual suspects of Kii, DD and now, GGNTKT (been discussed on ASR with detailed manufacturer measurements). Danley has similar coaxial virtues, thought FR is likely to be slightly more ragged, but with vastly higher SPL ability. Pick your tradeoffs.
Notably smaller and less extended than the options being discussed here. The analog phase linearisation is another one of those romanticised features that add excess cost, making PSI speakers far from the performance/price leaders. I don't place it too far off other speakers that are romanticised based on a cult of personality more than performance. Think Thiel, Vandersteen, ATC, PMC and so on.
Danley Studio Two just came out. A powered speaker with passive XO, yes, but Danley is one of the leading engineering-focused firms out there with its Synergy design. Alternatively, a more traditional Danley horn (preferably with subs) - SH-50 is quite popular with home audio. The Danley thread also mentioned Ocean Way HR-4/5 with matching subs (HR-5 is on the way to be measured by Amir). Unusual wide baffle design with midwoofer and tweeter horns, that would promise high SPL and directivity control if done well.
I would personally hold off on Neumanns. With the KH80DSP out I have no doubt they are going to expand the DSP platform to the larger speakers in the line, so the 420 are probably quite close to EOL. The KH80 is noticably more linear within its passband than the (already-excellent) larger speakers in the line.
The 8361s would definitely make the most sense - new release from an established brand's state-of-the-art lineup that has just reached maturity (8351A's problems seem to be almost eliminated). Then come the usual suspects of Kii, DD and now, GGNTKT (been discussed on ASR with detailed manufacturer measurements). Danley has similar coaxial virtues, thought FR is likely to be slightly more ragged, but with vastly higher SPL ability. Pick your tradeoffs.
Notably smaller and less extended than the options being discussed here. The analog phase linearisation is another one of those romanticised features that add excess cost, making PSI speakers far from the performance/price leaders. I don't place it too far off other speakers that are romanticised based on a cult of personality more than performance. Think Thiel, Vandersteen, ATC, PMC and so on.
You're right. I do think that the 8351B is the best of all the ones being discussed in this thread. You're totally correct it doesn't have quite as much bass power, but I'm really not sure that will matter in a relatively small office with plenty of room reinforcement, unless you have a really big one of course
It's also my personal choice, and for more bass I am adding subs(not to suggest that to you, as you've been clear about your desire not to have them!). I do think that it's pretty difficult to get quality bass out of a pair of speakers, no matter their anechoic measurements, especially ones that aren't gigantic floorstanders.
And certainly, I'm not suggesting that any Neumanns are a BAD speaker -- I have KH80s myself! They're solid. We're arguing speculating and arguing over molehills here at this point.
You are overselling DSP design, and if you think pure analog is overrated including ATC, then you need to hear some ATC50 or higher in a good room, they are NOT overrated. Also the KH310 bought up many times here, the A version is pure analog too and measures extremely well, especially for the price.
You're right. I do think that the 8351B is the best of all the ones being discussed in this thread. You're totally correct it doesn't have quite as much bass power, but I'm really not sure that will matter in a relatively small office with plenty of room reinforcement, unless you have a really big one of course
It's also my personal choice, and for more bass I am adding subs(not to suggest that to you, as you've been clear about your desire not to have them!). I do think that it's pretty difficult to get quality bass out of a pair of speakers, no matter their anechoic measurements, especially ones that aren't gigantic floorstanders.
And certainly, I'm not suggesting that any Neumanns are a BAD speaker -- I have KH80s myself! They're solid. We're arguing speculating and arguing over molehills here at this point.
IMHO it doesn't even matter Neumann is better or worse in this case. The OP already have 120 and 310, so there really is no need to get 420, if he likes Neumann sound so much he should be getting a sub and keep using 310.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-51#post-398172
Ah, more unsubstantiated ATC magic. Tell me where the magic is considering Neumann's 3" mid dome has the same distortion level at 10dB higher SPL as ATCs - and it has a smaller footprint than the ATC dome. The British monitor cult of personality is one of the strongest in the industry. They all have a superficial commitment to engineering, yet release merely incremental improvements on rustic designs under an outdated engineering paradigm. See more measurements here.
Pure analog is okay. In principle I like avoiding excess AD/DA too. Less points of failure. In fact, I always recommend the Genelec 8030/8050 over the 8330/8350 (8040 has not been revised yet). But tedious analog phase linearisation (as in the PSI, but not the Neumann) that inflates the price for the form factor (nearly 10k for an 8" 3-way when we have significantly larger and well engineered designs!) not so much, when the evidence for phase audibility in speakers is insignificant.
You seem to be a bit like me in what you want to avoid.
I do not want any more boxes either.
I admit I haven't read the whole thread so this may either have been suggested already or rejected.
Have you considered the KH 750 DSP sub? If you like the bass from the 310 and are only concerned by integrating a sub then this would be the most likely to integrate easily and well and one would hope have the same bass quality.
I probably won't change my kit now, I am 70 and prefer listening to dicking about with kit, but I must say in my hypothetical system I was going to listen to KH420s.
I was drawn to Genelec but the fanciest measuring ones are not recommended for my listening distance.
My concern over the D&D is, for me, too much computer and impossibility of the recommended positioning in my roiom.
I like the Kii wired remote which would mean I would choose them over D&D but the KH420 does sound the most convincingly suitable for me and since your objectives seem similar...
I wouldn't count on this. I rather expect that speakers are updated in order of appearance, so 120, 310, and at last 420. Or we might see a 510 (successor of K&H O500C).
Not going to bother argue with you on ATC, but you need to at least look at spec before giving other people advise. Genelec, unlike some other DPS speaker makers, let you avoid AD/DA process by taking AES digital input... Also there is a 8340, and like 8350, it also take AES digital input...
Yes, except AES out is rare in home audio. OP doesn't have AES out from the setup in his signature, so unless he is overhauling his source too, it isn't particularly relevant to this thread.
OTOH they may update them simply in the model order in which DSP offers the biggest performace increment (which would probably be this order anyway)
Just admit you are wrong and move on, you didn't even know 8340s exist and like to advise people on which Genelec to pick... USB or S/PDIF to AES device are readily available and not like they cost a fortune.
At that rate the 420 would have 20 year lifecycle. Not sure whether to be impressed that it is so advanced that it's still in the SOTA ballpark, or dismayed that no one has managed to catch up and undercut it despite the tech and capabilities being out there for a long time.
I do. Obviously the 8040/8340 exist. I was saying I generally prefer recommending the analog Genelecs. The reason is not just AD/DA, but paying a premium for a closed ecosystem (GLM) with limited capability compared to more advanced systems (eg. Acourate) that can be used for any speaker.
Of the analog Genelecs, the 8030 and 8050 have better directivity performance than the 8040. The 8030 and 8050 have both been revised acoustically. 8040 only had revisions in the power-saving circuit from release in 2004, no acoustic improvements. Did you know that? It's the odd one in the line-up. Hence me deliberately dropping both the 8040 and 8340 from recommendations for both reasons.
Hello @echopraxia
did you tell us the size of your room, listening distance, speaker close/far from the wall etc?
which SPL do you want at say 30Hz?
pierre
did you tell us the size of your room, listening distance, speaker close/far from the wall etc?
which SPL do you want at say 30Hz?
pierre
Genelec did recommend me the reverse: 8331x2+7360 or 8341x2+7370 instead of larger 8351 or 8361 without a sub. You can ask them directly.
Again, the more you keep going we know more about your ignorance and how you like to try to be a know it all. People have asked the difference between 8050B and 8050A, you know what answer Genelec gave? The answer is also the only difference is the power saving feature, they sound the same. I am even going to find you the link:
https://www.community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/906215#/
I stand corrected. Nonetheless, compare the off-axis graphs and power response of the 8050 and 8030 vs 8040. Significantly smoother and more control.
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