Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[Sprint]

I went to hear the Genelec bunch in an acoustically horrible room few weeks ago, to understand what the difference is with their GLM kit on/off room EQ.

View attachment 89196

One model fitted my shortlist for a living room speaker - measured well, room EQ, powerful enough to use without sub, good warranty policy. The 8350A.

After reading this review on the German website about 8350A, I compared the 8340A vs 8350A with GLM calibration on/off.

I have to say it made a difference for me, and after a while I continued comparing both 8340A and 8350A with room EQ from GLM software (mic + software is extra cost).

Looking at the summary of test data from both 8350A vs 8351B 8351A, it's hard to justify the price diff for me. I liked what I heard and after a while I stayed with the 8350A. It was the better speaker, reproduced music effortlessly and when comparing to 8340A I was sure I want a speaker with 8" drivers.

The speakers also come in white color. I heard you could even get them in another color (120 available for home speakers), but not sure about that.

I was in a similar dilemma like you. I have compared in the same room 8351A and 8350A. I felt as well that 8350 was pretty close and the extra money to make me spend was questionable. This made me with two options 8350 or 8340. I wanted to go for 8350 but I had to settle in for 8340 because:
a. 8340 allows me to place on a low board (attached is a pic). I could have placed 8350 on the subwoofers but then grey/black could not have matched. Sometimes in the near future I plan to upgrade my subs to Arendal or another SVS which are available in white color.
b. 8350 is not available in white. https://www.genelec.com/8350a#section-technical-specifications

If 8350 was available in white, it would have been my preference as well.

However I am very happy with my set up. GLM in my room made all the difference along with an excellently designed monitors.

 

[Bear123]

@andrewch Honestly my only complaint with Neumanns is that they don’t seem to have any sort of auto-standby. You can leave them on all the time (there isn’t any hiss unless you put your ear centimeters from the tweeter), but the heat sinks will remain very mildly warm to the touch and 24W of idle power will be consumed by each KH310. (But, this is fairly straightforward to solve yourself if you want via a trigger-controlled power strip.)

Another thing to consider vs Genelec is that the KH310 midrange and woofer is not grilled, whereas the 2-way Genelecs of similar size are fully grilled. Granted, this is maybe not a fair comparison since the flagship Genelec’s like my 8351B don’t have a grilled midrange either (though their woofers are protected by their unique desi

And lastly, the KH310 don’t seem to measure as well as other Neumanns or Genelec’s in one way, particularly the directivity index in some band of the midrange. But, I don’t hear any issues from it personally in the rooms I’ve listened.

Oh BTW also, I’ve measured a single Neumann KH310 pushing 105-110 decibels at 40-50hz without clipping indicator engaging. Their bass power is very impressive. I wouldn’t be surprised if these can outdo some subwoofers out there

So to your question, I do not think you would be unhappy with Neumann or Genelec, whichever you choose. If I were going for a $10k Neumann setup though I’d personally gravitate towards the KH420 due to their exceptional off-axis measurements and full range SPL capabilities (covering almost everything except borderline subsonic frequencies). But I realize you want a more tiered approach. In that sense, you may want to weigh the options of Genelec’s 8” 2-way and 3-way monitors against the Neumanns. They’re all fantastic for the price, and just have slightly different pros and cons.

Was reading up a bit on your blind shootout thread involving the Genelec and Salon 2. First of all, most definitely eq below Schroeder, with subs. This seems to make the most sense as the test should be done in the way that people would use high fidelity speakers in a system whose goal is high fidelity, and that is with dual subs eq'd to the room. Bass performance is leveled and speaker sound quality is now the determining factor.

On that note, if you had your choice, assuming eq below 200 Hz either way, would you choose speakers only, or speakers with dual subs such as the F18's. You have to listen to either speaker that way from now on.

 

[Bear123]

I was in a similar dilemma like you. I have compared in the same room 8351A and 8350A. I felt as well that 8350 was pretty close and the extra money to make me spend was questionable. This made me with two options 8350 or 8340. I wanted to go for 8350 but I had to settle in for 8340 because:
a. 8340 allows me to place on a low board (attached is a pic). I could have placed 8350 on the subwoofers but then grey/black could not have matched. Sometimes in the near future I plan to upgrade my subs to Arendal or another SVS which are available in white color.
b. 8350 is not available in white. https://www.genelec.com/8350a#section-technical-specifications

If 8350 was available in white, it would have been my preference as well.

However I am very happy with my set up. GLM in my room made all the difference along with an excellently designed monitors.

Your room looks amazing! Have you considering perhaps placing a decorative acoustic panel behind the center speaker, with the primary goal of covering/hiding all the outlets and wires? Your room looks so well thought out and polished that to me, this area sticks out a little. The acoustic panel would primarily provide aesthetic benefits but perhaps some small amount of actual acoustic benefit as well. Just a though.

Also, do your subs provide a good response with front wall placement? How do you like the SVS?

 

[steve59]

When I see Genelec I think of pro monitors. I've never seen or heard a pair and the salons in the chicago suburbs don't carry them in fact other than powered versions from kef and dynaudio the only others i've seen were meridian and the price for that brand is just...hard to justify. Kii3 with the bass modules was shown at axpona 2019 and sounded good, but that the rubber cabinets vibrate in sympathy to the music needs to be explained to me. D&D if you can follow the strict setup guidelines could be the one, but I would wait a couple years let the product complete.

 

[q3cpma]

When I see Genelec I think of pro monitors. I've never seen or heard a pair and the salons in the chicago suburbs don't carry them in fact other than powered versions from kef and dynaudio the only others i've seen were meridian and the price for that brand is just...hard to justify. Kii3 with the bass modules was shown at axpona 2019 and sounded good, but that the rubber cabinets vibrate in sympathy to the music needs to be explained to me. D&D if you can follow the strict setup guidelines could be the one, but I would wait a couple years let the product complete.

Don't see any resonance here:

 

[Sprint]

Your room looks amazing! Have you considering perhaps placing a decorative acoustic panel behind the center speaker, with the primary goal of covering/hiding all the outlets and wires? Your room looks so well thought out and polished that to me, this area sticks out a little. The acoustic panel would primarily provide aesthetic benefits but perhaps some small amount of actual acoustic benefit as well. Just a though.

Also, do your subs provide a good response with front wall placement? How do you like the SVS?

Thanks for your compliments on the room.

I am with you. My wife doesn't like it as well. She wants to get a high board. But if I get a high board, it should have enough place to place the speakers inside the board as the screen when pulled down will occupy the place. I like your idea of decorative panels. I need them behind my back wall as well.

SVS subs are excellent They are 12" inch, model SB-12nsd. It was quite cheap when I brought them in 2014, around 450 euros each. I still have an issue with the right sub. The delimiter goes on quickly. Other than that, they are a powerhouse.

Now that I upgraded to Genelecs, I still have couple of areas that I need to improve.

Either replace my Yamaha RX-V775 with a new Denon x3700H so that the Audyssey will do a better job than YPAO to correct my subs and I will continue to use GLM for speakers. Or I would need to go for Genelec subs which are very expensive and price/performance is not optimal but their integration will be top notch with GLM.

If I have to be within my budget, I have to atleast stick with a pair of 7360 costing close to 3900 euros. But they are still 10 inches compared to SVS which are 12". So, I am still wondering if 7360 would be enough for my room and on the winning side I get better sub integration compared to SVS combo.

OR another option is to go for bigger white color Arendal or Nubert subs which come with own app to measure and correct.. Still retain my Yamaha Avr.

Do not know which of these options are better.

 

[Bear123]

Thanks for your compliments on the room.

I am with you. My wife doesn't like it as well. She wants to get a high board. But if I get a high board, it should have enough place to place the speakers inside the board as the screen when pulled down will occupy the place. I like your idea of decorative panels. I need them behind my back wall as well.

SVS subs are excellent They are 12" inch, model SB-12nsd. It was quite cheap when I brought them in 2014, around 450 euros each. I still have an issue with the right sub. The delimiter goes on quickly. Other than that, they are a powerhouse.

Now that I upgraded to Genelecs, I still have couple of areas that I need to improve.

Either replace my Yamaha RX-V775 with a new Denon x3700H so that the Audyssey will do a better job than YPAO to correct my subs and I will continue to use GLM for speakers. Or I would need to go for Genelec subs which are very expensive and price/performance is not optimal but their integration will be top notch with GLM.

If I have to be within my budget, I have to atleast stick with a pair of 7360 costing close to 3900 euros. But they are still 10 inches compared to SVS which are 12". So, I am still wondering if 7360 would be enough for my room and on the winning side I get better sub integration compared to SVS combo.

OR another option is to go for bigger white color Arendal or Nubert subs which come with own app to measure and correct.. Still retain my Yamaha Avr.

Do not know which of these options are better.

How about an X3600 for the lower cost. I think you might bet better results on the speakers as well below 300Hz or wherever you choose to limit correction.

Arendal seems like a good option for subs in your market, even if you don't use their eq and let Audyssey do the integration.

 

[steve59]

q3cpma, pretty colors. If one was to put a coin on the top of the kii3 it would start bouncing, no doubt. Maybe all speaker cabinets should be made of rubber idk. In the case of the Kii3 it is unique and interesting.

 

[andrewch]

I was in a similar dilemma like you. I have compared in the same room 8351A and 8350A. I felt as well that 8350 was pretty close and the extra money to make me spend was questionable. This made me with two options 8350 or 8340. I wanted to go for 8350 but I had to settle in for 8340 because:
a. 8340 allows me to place on a low board (attached is a pic). I could have placed 8350 on the subwoofers but then grey/black could not have matched. Sometimes in the near future I plan to upgrade my subs to Arendal or another SVS which are available in white color.
b. 8350 is not available in white. https://www.genelec.com/8350a#section-technical-specifications

If 8350 was available in white, it would have been my preference as well.

However I am very happy with my set up. GLM in my room made all the difference along with an excellently designed monitors.

Hah, yes. I see we had similar problems to solve.

I wrote previously that I was considering the Neumann KH310 + later the KH750 subs, but I scratched that idea - mainly aesthetics and no room correction/DSP on the KH310, which will require more devices for proper home use at the beginning. I even wrote to one of Neumann employees on ASR in August if he could send them to Amir, so it's great to finally see them reviewed. No surprises there, S&R already wrote in 2016 how good they are.

Genelec 8350A comes in white! I know they don't have it on their website, but it exists and is a bit more expensive ofc. Not sure why they're not showing that info on official website.

The goal in making my full range system is doing it in two stages. That way I can enjoy the speakers first, and later add subs which bring additional cost and appreciate what they bring to the system. Kind of like an MVP.

Here is what I might do:

1. Get Genelec 2 x 8350A white + GLM kit. Enjoy their sound for a while before bringing in the subs. I already have a nice balanced DAC with 120 SINAD.

Add two subs to the system

2. Add minidsp SHD - it has a nice DAC, Dirac, streamer, can manage 2.2 system. The previous DAC will not be needed.
3. Add 2 x SVS SB-2000 Pro white or other color. PC-2000 Pro also looks interesting.
4. Enjoy every step of the way

I auditioned 8340A vs 8350A and prefer the larger 8" woofers.

Even cheaper and also great combo for a full range system would be: 2 x 8340A + 2 x SB-2000 Pro or even the cheaper SB-1000.

 

[Sprint]

How about an X3600 for the lower cost. I think you might bet better results on the speakers as well below 300Hz or wherever you choose to limit correction.

Arendal seems like a good option for subs in your market, even if you don't use their eq and let Audyssey do the integration.

The price difference between x3600 and x3700 is around 100-150K. I saw that for my Genelecs, 3700 could give a clean signal in pre-amp mode as the amps will be switched off.

There is also Nubert subs (down firing). I haven't heard them but they are popular as well.

 

[Sprint]

Hah, yes. I see we had similar problems to solve.

I wrote previously that I was considering the Neumann KH310 + later the KH750 subs, but I scratched that idea - mainly aesthetics and no room correction/DSP on the KH310, which will require more devices for proper home use at the beginning. I even wrote to one of Neumann employees on ASR in August if he could send them to Amir, so it's great to finally see them reviewed. No surprises there, S&R already wrote in 2016 how good they are.

Genelec 8350A comes in white! I know they don't have it on their website, but it exists and is a bit more expensive ofc. Not sure why they're not showing that info on official website.

The goal in making my full range system is doing it in two stages. That way I can enjoy the speakers first, and later add subs which bring additional cost and appreciate what they bring to the system. Kind of like an MVP.

View attachment 96017

Here is what I might do:

1. Get Genelec 2 x 8350A white + GLM kit. Enjoy their sound for a while before bringing in the subs. I already have a nice balanced DAC with 120 SINAD.

Add two subs to the system

2. Add minidsp SHD - it has a nice DAC, Dirac, streamer, can manage 2.2 system. The previous DAC will not be needed.
3. Add 2 x SVS SB-2000 Pro white or other color. PC-2000 Pro also looks interesting.
4. Enjoy every step of the way

I auditioned 8340A vs 8350A and prefer the larger 8" woofers.

Even cheaper and also great combo for a full range system would be: 2 x 8340A + 2 x SB-2000 Pro or even the cheaper SB-1000.

I am pretty sure you will definitely enjoy this journey. I started a similar journey with my Yamaha NS-777 floor standers without Subs first. Then I added SB-12nsd. It was like a night and day. My NS777 had a lower end till 35HZ. Still adding 2 subs made the 345 euro speaker shine. I lived with this set up until this April.

At the beginning it was a casual listening purchase from Thomann on Genelecs (2 8340 and 2 8330) to just see how it sounded in my room. Once I unpacked, compared to my heavy floor standers, it had a greater WAF. After I set up, I played all the Marvel movies. Oh my god, what can I say on the quality. These Genelecs had so much details, clarity, imaging, natural sounds that we decided to keep them and finalise the set up with an additional purchase of 8340 as center. I have tested couple of speakers in my room. They all did not really shine in my room because I have a very large glass door to my garden (with a medium thin curtain). But with GLM, I hadn't expected the outcome. Few months back, I saw Tenet in a local theatre which JBL Professional set up. When I came back and played a Tenet trailer, it was very close and at some places, I liked my set up better. In theatre it was too loud and a bit bright.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I am pretty sure you will definitely enjoy this journey. I started a similar journey with my Yamaha NS-777 floor standers without Subs first. Then I added SB-12nsd. It was like a night and day. My NS777 had a lower end till 35HZ. Still adding 2 subs made the 345 euro speaker shine. I lived with this set up until this April.

At the beginning it was a casual listening purchase from Thomann on Genelecs (2 8340 and 2 8330) to just see how it sounded in my room. Once I unpacked, compared to my heavy floor standers, it had a greater WAF. After I set up, I played all the Marvel movies. Oh my god, what can I say on the quality. These Genelecs had so much details, clarity, imaging, natural sounds that we decided to keep them and finalise the set up with an additional purchase of 8340 as center. I have tested couple of speakers in my room. They all did not really shine in my room because I have a very large glass door to my garden (with a medium thin curtain). But with GLM, I hadn't expected the outcome. Few months back, I saw Tenet in a local theatre which JBL Professional set up. When I came back and played a Tenet trailer, it was very close and at some places, I liked my set up better. In theatre it was too loud and a bit bright.

Why did you choose 8340 over 8350?

 

[Bear123]

The price difference between x3600 and x3700 is around 100-150K. I saw that for my Genelecs, 3700 could give a clean signal in pre-amp mode as the amps will be switched off.

There is also Nubert subs (down firing). I haven't heard them but they are popular as well.

Thats not much price difference....Ive seen the 3600 for $799 here lately. I guess you don't need Audysey for the speakers since you have GLM.....is it also able to eq non Genelec subs?

 

[Sprint]

Why did you choose 8340 over 8350?

8350 was not available in white color and the grey was not matching with the whole living room. Plus of course, the price difference..

 

[Sprint]

Thats not much price difference....Ive seen the 3600 for $799 here lately. I guess you don't need Audysey for the speakers since you have GLM.....is it also able to eq non Genelec subs?

Oh is it! In EU, 3600 still is costing around 850-900 Euros. I have raised another thread in ASR here asking if I can run 3700 and use Audyssey to correct only the subs as I will continue to use GLM for Genelecs. I got the response it should be possible.

 

[echopraxia]

Was reading up a bit on your blind shootout thread involving the Genelec and Salon 2. First of all, most definitely eq below Schroeder, with subs. This seems to make the most sense as the test should be done in the way that people would use high fidelity speakers in a system whose goal is high fidelity, and that is with dual subs eq'd to the room. Bass performance is leveled and speaker sound quality is now the determining factor.

On that note, if you had your choice, assuming eq below 200 Hz either way, would you choose speakers only, or speakers with dual subs such as the F18's. You have to listen to either speaker that way from now on.

My impression is that when the Salon2’s are tuned optimally to leverage their bass capabilities in addition to my two Rythmik F12 subwoofers (e.g. imagine Salon2’s running almost full range with just enough high pass filter to offload under 30hz), I get best results similar to two smaller speakers with four subwoofers. When I do this and hand-calibrate each channel to perfection with the miniDSP SHD (which I should add takes quite a lot of work, but gives me peace of mind that an automatic calibration process isn’t doing anything silly), I get really amazing results.

It’s no surprise then that the Genelec 8351B plus two subwoofers has a bit less bass smoothness throughout the room vs what is effectively four subwoofers (with the Salon2’s acting as two of those). If I use a really steep crossover at e.g. 80hz, I’m effectively throwing away the value the Salon2’s big woofers provide, and when doing so the advantage heard in bass goes away and the Genelec 8351B’s and Salon2’s are on more equal footing regarding bass quality / smoothness.

It certainly seems true that (especially for larger rooms) more bass drivers is almost always better. In this way, the Salon2’s gives better bass response (depending on crossover specifics) when combined with subwoofers no matter how many subwoofers you already have because using the Salon2’s is much like adding two extra subwoofers to the mix. And you certainly pay a premium for that, too.

In contrast, I suspect you could get the same bass results cheaper by just buying a pair of Rythmik F12’s and stacking less full ranged speakers on top of them, with the same amount of floor space consumed. I’m just theorizing though; I haven’t really tried that. It’s also possible that having three 8 inch drivers helps smooth out in-room response better than a single 12 or 15 inch driver would, but this is where my understanding of the theory gets hazy and I don’t have simulation software to test this idea.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

How about these:

https://www.mesanovicmicrophones.com/rtm10

 

[madchillunited]

Hi what were you room size and listen

Edit: All of this was likely due to my user error (bad subwoofer placement initially in a really bad null zone), which perhaps confused GLM to make things worse (?). Either way, it's now performing exactly as I had hoped it would from the specs, which means I am happy As far as I can tell now, the sub is performing realistically to the SPL specs Genelec quotes on their site. Yes, other subs outperform them for lower price, but not to the extreme degree that it seemed earlier, which was my fault for placing them in a bass null, not Genelec's fault! So please don't read this as a negative on Genelec's subs any more.

Initial impression on Genelec subs: I ordered a Genelec 7350A to add to my very small room to fill in the lower octave below my 8351B’s.

Unfortunately, for $1260 this subwoofer is very disappointing and so is Genelec’s calibration software.

1) Genelec’s setup process does not appear to calibrate level of the subwoofer vs speakers. I had to use REW to do this manually, and ended up having to set a -15db level on both the main speakers for the subwoofer to measure flat with them.

Note also that this is with a 50hz crossover, so the 8351B’s are already handling as much of the bass as the software allows me. Using a 80hz crossover was extremely distracting since just like any subwoofer I’ve ever owned in any room I’ve ever tried this, the subwoofer is extremely obviously localizable with an 80hz crossover due to the slope being gradual leaving plenty of content up around 200hz.

2) Even in this small room, the subwoofer clips really early. This subwoofer just cannot do “loud”. I realize it’s just an 8” ported subwoofer, but seeing the SPL measurements on Genelec’s website, I expected more. It looks like they measure at a rather high frequency for a sub. I also hear a lot of port noise and distortion, probably because it’s being pushed near its limit.

In fact, I suspect that my 8351B’s actually do bass better than this 7350A sub does.

For $1260, this subwoofer doesn’t even come close to touching the power or low distortion of my lower priced Rythmik F12. I didn’t really think it would compete, but I didn’t think it would run into headroom issues so quickly in the small room I have it in.

I‘d even be willing to pay a premium for Genelec’s larger more powerful sub if I could justify it with software or compactness. But I find the software quite lacking vs e.g. miniDSP SHD’s Dirac Live. And, this sub is about the same size as the Rythmik F12 which completely dominates it in every way (power, distortion, deep bass extension, price).

Don’t get me wrong: Genelec makes fantastic speakers. Even for the high price, I don’t know if much beats the 8351B’s. But when it comes to subwoofers, I am very disappointed.

What was your room size and listening distance may I ask !? Thanks!

 

[steve59]

A used pair of meridian DSP 7200 or DSP 8000 legacy's