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Neumann KH 80 DSP for small untreated room?

Miguelón

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Hy everybody, I’m considering to buy a pair of flat response speakers for a small living room, non treated (and sadly it will continue like so, I’m not the master in the house :) ).

Have already a Genelec 8030 in trying 14 days period, but even after all sorts of manipulation on the switches I cannot achieve the desired sound.

Actually I have -2 dB low shelving, -4 sounds a little anemic. Desktop -4 dB around 140 Hz (It has a table nearby, not so big) causes a non acceptable lack on mid bass. And finally the low bass roll off kills completely the bass…

The actual configuration with the -2 dB low filter is the best I can achieve after 10 days, but still resonates a little and not very rhythmic.

I think the best option will be Neumann KH 120 ii with the MA-1 software but I’m not sure if I will pay a lot of money to finally kill all the extra bass response with filters. Over my budget for instance.

Since the Neumann KH 80 DSP has barely the same linear f. interval (from 57 Hz the Neumanns, from 53 Hz the Genelec), I consider to use the ipad app for tunning.

Of course, I can also buy later the MA-1 mic and do the appropriate corrections but since the seller give me another 14 days I prefer to play a little bit with the iPad app without spending more money.

Will I notice a huge difference between both 2 speakers, 8030 and KH 80, because of those 4 Hz difference?

And also, do the iPad app still work appropriately? On the app store there is no upgrades since 4 years, on iOS 13!
 

teashea

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Hy everybody, I’m considering to buy a pair of flat response speakers for a small living room, non treated (and sadly it will continue like so, I’m not the master in the house :) ).

Have already a Genelec 8030 in trying 14 days period, but even after all sorts of manipulation on the switches I cannot achieve the desired sound.

Actually I have -2 dB low shelving, -4 sounds a little anemic. Desktop -4 dB around 140 Hz (It has a table nearby, not so big) causes a non acceptable lack on mid bass. And finally the low bass roll off kills completely the bass…

The actual configuration with the -2 dB low filter is the best I can achieve after 10 days, but still resonates a little and not very rhythmic.

I think the best option will be Neumann KH 120 ii with the MA-1 software but I’m not sure if I will pay a lot of money to finally kill all the extra bass response with filters. Over my budget for instance.

Since the Neumann KH 80 DSP has barely the same linear f. interval (from 57 Hz the Neumanns, from 53 Hz the Genelec), I consider to use the ipad app for tunning.

Of course, I can also buy later the MA-1 mic and do the appropriate corrections but since the seller give me another 14 days I prefer to play a little bit with the iPad app without spending more money.

Will I notice a huge difference between both 2 speakers, 8030 and KH 80, because of those 4 Hz difference?

And also, do the iPad app still work appropriately? On the app store there is
Hy everybody, I’m considering to buy a pair of flat response speakers for a small living room, non treated (and sadly it will continue like so, I’m not the master in the house :) ).

Have already a Genelec 8030 in trying 14 days period, but even after all sorts of manipulation on the switches I cannot achieve the desired sound.

Actually I have -2 dB low shelving, -4 sounds a little anemic. Desktop -4 dB around 140 Hz (It has a table nearby, not so big) causes a non acceptable lack on mid bass. And finally the low bass roll off kills completely the bass…

The actual configuration with the -2 dB low filter is the best I can achieve after 10 days, but still resonates a little and not very rhythmic.

I think the best option will be Neumann KH 120 ii with the MA-1 software but I’m not sure if I will pay a lot of money to finally kill all the extra bass response with filters. Over my budget for instance.

Since the Neumann KH 80 DSP has barely the same linear f. interval (from 57 Hz the Neumanns, from 53 Hz the Genelec), I consider to use the ipad app for tunning.

Of course, I can also buy later the MA-1 mic and do the appropriate corrections but since the seller give me another 14 days I prefer to play a little bit with the iPad app without spending more money.

Will I notice a huge difference between both 2 speakers, 8030 and KH 80, because of those 4 Hz difference?

And also, do the iPad app still work appropriately? On the app store there is no upgrades since 4 years, on iOS 13!
These are designed as nearfield monitors. This is an inappropriate application.
 

Ellebob

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Do you have size limitations? Price?

For a large room without a sub I would go with a larger woofer like 8". If you can use a sub that would be another solution for bass.

4hz is not a huge difference.
 
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Miguelón

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Do you have size limitations? Price?

For a large room without a sub I would go with a larger woofer like 8". If you can use a sub that would be another solution for bass.

4hz is not a huge difference.
The room is about 4x3 meters, but have plenty of reflective surfaces. As my partner suffer from allergy we have no carpets nor curtains.

Prize can go to about 1500€ without the sub, and size of the speakers should be no larger than 5 inch cone (to fit over bookshelves if needed, but primary they will be placed over floor stands)

Listening will be the main use, but also to improve the sound of my digital piano.
 
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Miguelón

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Our listening distance is between 1 or 2 meters so can consider nearfield.

We love Genelec 8030’s sound, but probably we can improve clarity of mid bass with some software room corrections
 

Ellebob

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The kh80 is definitely a different sound, another one I'd recommend in that price range and size would be the kef LSX II.
 
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Miguelón

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Thank you for the recommendation but I try them in 2023, didn’t like the sound: too focused on mid-bass and not clear mid and vocals for my taste. In general I don’t like Kef.

But is a natter of personal preferences, what I’m looking for is flat sound as possible to my room, I have some previous experience and is the most pleasant for me.
 

DJBonoBobo

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Hy everybody, I’m considering to buy a pair of flat response speakers for a small living room, non treated (and sadly it will continue like so, I’m not the master in the house :) ).

Have already a Genelec 8030 in trying 14 days period, but even after all sorts of manipulation on the switches I cannot achieve the desired sound.

Actually I have -2 dB low shelving, -4 sounds a little anemic. Desktop -4 dB around 140 Hz (It has a table nearby, not so big) causes a non acceptable lack on mid bass. And finally the low bass roll off kills completely the bass…

The actual configuration with the -2 dB low filter is the best I can achieve after 10 days, but still resonates a little and not very rhythmic.

I think the best option will be Neumann KH 120 ii with the MA-1 software but I’m not sure if I will pay a lot of money to finally kill all the extra bass response with filters. Over my budget for instance.

Since the Neumann KH 80 DSP has barely the same linear f. interval (from 57 Hz the Neumanns, from 53 Hz the Genelec), I consider to use the ipad app for tunning.

Of course, I can also buy later the MA-1 mic and do the appropriate corrections but since the seller give me another 14 days I prefer to play a little bit with the iPad app without spending more money.

Will I notice a huge difference between both 2 speakers, 8030 and KH 80, because of those 4 Hz difference?

And also, do the iPad app still work appropriately? On the app store there is no upgrades since 4 years, on iOS 13!
It is very likely the lack of bass cannot be cured with different speakers, because the room and positions in the room are the dominant factors. You need a measurement microphone to 1. determine the best positions and 2. find best eq setting to optimize what's possible in your situation.
Neumann and Genelec have their own options for mics and software, and there are third party options, too.
 

Ellebob

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Genelec, Newman and Kef all measure pretty flat. I think the problem is most likely reflective room. Of those three I think the Genelec is the best but that's my personal opinion.
With your reflective room your highs might be emphasized, did you try the treble tilt on the Genelec? Often times in one area of a frequency range gets emphasized the other areas of the frequency range seem recessed or not as clear. This might make your mids seem better by reducing the highs. Worth a shot if you haven't already tried it.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

A few questions:
What is your usual listening level in dB?
What are you driving the speakers with?

Peace.
 

Pearljam5000

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The minimum speaker size I'd buy is 5 inch so I'd go the with the Genelecs
 

dagfinn

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Hy everybody, I’m considering to buy a pair of flat response speakers for a small living room, non treated (and sadly it will continue like so, I’m not the master in the house :) ).

Have already a Genelec 8030 in trying 14 days period, but even after all sorts of manipulation on the switches I cannot achieve the desired sound.

Actually I have -2 dB low shelving, -4 sounds a little anemic. Desktop -4 dB around 140 Hz (It has a table nearby, not so big) causes a non acceptable lack on mid bass. And finally the low bass roll off kills completely the bass…

The actual configuration with the -2 dB low filter is the best I can achieve after 10 days, but still resonates a little and not very rhythmic.

I think the best option will be Neumann KH 120 ii with the MA-1 software but I’m not sure if I will pay a lot of money to finally kill all the extra bass response with filters. Over my budget for instance.

Since the Neumann KH 80 DSP has barely the same linear f. interval (from 57 Hz the Neumanns, from 53 Hz the Genelec), I consider to use the ipad app for tunning.

Of course, I can also buy later the MA-1 mic and do the appropriate corrections but since the seller give me another 14 days I prefer to play a little bit with the iPad app without spending more money.

Will I notice a huge difference between both 2 speakers, 8030 and KH 80, because of those 4 Hz difference?

And also, do the iPad app still work appropriately? On the app store there is no upgrades since 4 years, on iOS 13!
Have you tried doing EQ in your player software? You should be able to tailor output from the 8030c with much greater precision from there, compared to the dip-switches :).
 
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Miguelón

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It is very likely the lack of bass cannot be cured with different speakers, because the room and positions in the room are the dominant factors. You need a measurement microphone to 1. determine the best positions and 2. find best eq setting to optimize what's possible in your situation.
Neumann and Genelec have their own options for mics and software, and there are third party options, too.
Thanks for your opinion!

I’m agree but surprisingly the Neumann kh 80 has arrived this afternoon and it sounds fantastic compared to the Genelec 8030.

In orchestral music (concretely Haydn cello concertos by Steven Isserlis) I can differentiate way more instruments than with the Genelec, but it happened the same with Dire Strait’s Sultans of Swing album, and with Metallica’s Thunderstuck.

Genelec 8030 has a more beautiful sound, by itself. But Neumann ones disappear: it has no fingerprint, no sound signature or personality.

Which is just I was looking for. Perhaps is by chance that fit’s better on my room, I’m only listening with the “small desktop” setting.

Equipment setting in Genelec is brutal, -4 dB, which kill a lot of mid-bass frequencies (Neumann has -1,5 dB for the first position, -2,5 dB and -3,5 if I remember).

Paradoxically the low end is also better than Genelec 1 inch bigger speaker, very tight and precise. Or can be the same casual finding that those few hertzs below the 50s that the 8030 achieve were too much for my reflective floor and celling.

Don’t know, but even here the low filter on Neumann’s app are totally subtile, I can easily tune it by ear. Normally I use orchestra recordings that I know well from headphones or just by experience on the music and instruments, not very scientific but enough for me.

I was reluctant to the A-D-A conversion inside the Neumann, since have no digital input but honestly I don’t perceive any loss on definition or clarity, is just the opposite.

Excuse me by all that text, I’m really happy with my little new musical friend! :)

Surely soon or later I will buy the MA-1 mic to make the fine adjustments to the room, but now I’m enjoying the new arrival as a child…
 

Ellebob

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I'm glad you found something that worked for you! It's also why I recommend people listen to various speakers. We carry both of them where I work as well as Kef and other brands. Genelec is my personal brand favorite but I've seen enough customers choose various brands because that's what they preferred. Enjoy your new speakers!
 
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Miguelón

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I'm glad you found something that worked for you! It's also why I recommend people listen to various speakers. We carry both of them where I work as well as Kef and other brands. Genelec is my personal brand favorite but I've seen enough customers choose various brands because that's what they preferred. Enjoy your new speakers!
Thanks, I will enjoy without doubt!

I tried various monitors before going to Genelec vs Neumann A-B listening: Krk, Yamaha, Adams, the little 8010 and 8020 Genelecs, finally 8030 and Neumann’s KH 80 dsp.

I realized that classical music is really relevant to my choice, and flat was my best choice: instruments have a real acoustic reference since we played and record without electronics.

And also dynamics are more complex than pop or rock also, the rhythm and musical phrasing depends on tiny variations on intensity of all the instruments, whereas other styles are more helped with percussion generally.

I don’t think is a matter of brands, Genelec 8030 is quite flat but little emphasis on mids specially vocals: at least my impression match the frequency response curve provided by both brands and by Amir measurements (apart from some issues with his microphone when firsts calibrations).

Due to our current placing of sofa and the piano, our listening distance of 2 meters is more dominated by some horizontal surfaces direct reflexions than walls, so also the “desktop mode” of both speakers was crucial to my final choice (if I don’t throw the money out of the window and purchase the kh 120 ii :))

Probably I will be happy also with SAM Genelecs monitors but need GLM kit for room corrections, the 4 and 5 inches versions have no dip switches.

So I highly recommend Neumann kh 80 for flat response in near field and desktop setting, both measurements and personal experience agree.

For larger and not desktop placement possibly Genelec 8330 will work quite fine, but didn’t tried because the pair plus GLM kit jumps to 1800€, too much for my budget.

As I mentioned earlier I perceive Genelec sound more relaxing and pleasant, but also less accurate. They have some sound signature that is not present on Neumann: this one is crazy flat.

Surely Genelec will modernize his entry level SAM speakers, I think they can produce better speakers and improve internal DSP: 8330 has more than 10 years if I remember right
 
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Miguelón

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The minimum speaker size I'd buy is 5 inch so I'd go the with the Genelecs
Size matters generally because of frequency range and harmonics control, but in this case the Neumann 4 inch monitor covers roughly the same frequencies as many 5 inches cones and h. distortion is non audible at my listening levels. Is linear from 57 Hz, many 5 inches speakers go to under 50 Hz but quite weekly and with smoother roll off on the 50-60 Hz band.

I’ve red many times “bigger sound” when comparing monitors of different sizes, but I think this adjective is only psychological: frequency response and harmonic distortion is what matters. Yamaha HS 5 sounds really “small” compared with Genelec 8020 or Neumann Kh 80 for example
 

monks-cat

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Does the ipad app stil work with the kh 80s? Or do you need to buy the MA1 to do the alignment?
 

monks-cat

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Yes, the app work perfectly. I had the same doubt, but it is fast and easy to use
May I ask which ipad and operating system you are using? Also, does the app require you to use an external mic or do you use the built in ipad mic? EDIT.. oh I think I'm just realizing the app just asks questions..

Was thinking of buying a used kh80 (no MA1).. But with my odd shaped room I think its better I get something that does the adjustments via mic like the MA1.
 
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Miguelón

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May I ask which ipad and operating system you are using? Also, does the app require you to use an external mic or do you use the built in ipad mic? EDIT.. oh I think I'm just realizing the app just asks questions..

Was thinking of buying a used kh80 (no MA1).. But with my odd shaped room I think its better I get something that does the adjustments via mic like the MA1.
I have installed the 17.2.1 version, the app is quite simple as it only depends on ethernet connection.

Yes, is not a calibration tool, just have some preinstalled profiles depending on volume of the room, proximity to the walls, desktop setups…

Which is really fun (for me at least :) ) is to play with the parametric EQ.

My room is problematic also, but it fits very well with not many manipulations.
 
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