Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[Absolute]

From my perspective, I don’t really care if Genelec’s coaxials have GLM or not. I’m purely interested in finding the best active stereo speakers I can find in this price range, in terms of objective measurements like FR, horizontal/vertical directivity, and bass SPL capabilities. Whether it comes with a built in DSP solution I do not much care as long as the measurements in the end are the best (trade off) I can find.

This line of thinking I greatly respect!

When it comes to bass I have some thoughts based on experience;

- There's often a difference between small speakers with subs and bigger speakers without subs and that is likely the mid/upper bass capability. Looking at the different graphs posted where the SPL capability of different speakers posted here my thought is that most smaller speakers have marginal capacity between 100-300 hz. That same area is where you're most likely to have huge dips due to boundary interference and EQ will put a strain on this headroom.

- Most subs aren't designed to play up to 200-300 hz very effectively so it might not be as straightforward to "win back" that superior capacity in that region.

- Buying subs to use up to that area defeats the purpose of separated subs as they would need to be placed very close to the mains. Then it would look better and be more sane to buy bigger mains instead.

 

[soundwave]

You could also opt for a pair of Dynaudio XD600`s or XD 60`s. In Europe they are reasonably affordable on the second hand market.
They are a lot cheaper than the Kii`s or D&D's.

They are a closed three way system with 600 watt's per speaker and go down to 16 Hz. They also measure very well: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dynaudio-focus-600-xd-loudspeaker-review/

I use a pair of XD 600`s in combination with mini DSP-Dirac.

 

[echopraxia]

This line of thinking I greatly respect!

When it comes to bass I have some thoughts based on experience;

- There's often a difference between small speakers with subs and bigger speakers without subs and that is likely the mid/upper bass capability. Looking at the different graphs posted where the SPL capability of different speakers posted here my thought is that most smaller speakers have marginal capacity between 100-300 hz. That same area is where you're most likely to have huge dips due to boundary interference and EQ will put a strain on this headroom.

- Most subs aren't designed to play up to 200-300 hz very effectively so it might not be as straightforward to "win back" that superior capacity in that region.

- Buying subs to use up to that area defeats the purpose of separated subs as they would need to be placed very close to the mains. Then it would look better and be more sane to buy bigger mains instead.

That's a good point -- I've never actually tried to measure which frequencies correlate to the subjective sensation of better and more tactile bass/midbass from my Neumann KH310s. I hope you're right, because I believe all the speakers being discussed here easily can achieve >100db in the 100-300hz range.

 

[echopraxia]

Ok, I’m 99.9% sure at this point I’ll be going with the Genelec 8351B. Then, if it proves insufficient in bass output, I’ll later consider the addition of a Genelec sub.

Thanks for the help, everyone! Of course, feel free to continue the discussion about speakers in this price range in general.

 

[echopraxia]

You could also opt for a pair of Dynaudio XD600`s or XD 60`s. In Europe they are reasonably affordable on the second hand market.
They are a lot cheaper than the Kii`s or D&D's.

In the US, they look just about the same price.

 

[detlev24]

Ok, I have to ask: What is a "Funksystem" rating in there?

That just means "wireless connectivity", which the 8361A does not have. On their review of 'Cabasse The Pearl', for instance, it mentions 'WLAN'.

"stereoplay" and "AUDIO" are the most influencing hi-fi magazines in Germany, closely connected to each other, and serving every bias. However, especially stereoplay delivers the most useful measurements [besides those of pro-audio magazines like "Sound & Recording"; who usually have a look at a different type of gear, anyways]. The written "novel" that is accompanied by their measurements, as well as their rating system, quite often contradict to what the diagrams show.

 

[Vintage57]

Thank, my translator app must be a work in progress

 

[echopraxia]

Hello @echopraxia

did you tell us the size of your room, listening distance, speaker close/far from the wall etc?
which SPL do you want at say 30Hz?

pierre

Approximately 11 feet x 9 feet, and I'm able to configure listening distance anywhere between 5 feet to 2 feet (whatever sounds best).

That said, I would prefer for a speaker of this price to scale up to rooms at least a bit larger than this in case I move in the future to a place with different floor plan. However, I do expect that this listening distance range would not change significantly no matter what, since these speakers would most likely be tethered to my work-from-home desktop computer setup no matter what.

But I do accept that if I ever move this setup into a large open floor plan (just for the sake of example), I can't expect there to be much of a bass room gain like there is in this room. So it's okay if these speakers don't have massive bass capabilities to handle such scenarios -- I do accept that a subwoofer may be required in such a case.

 

[Absolute]

That's a good point -- I've never actually tried to measure which frequencies correlate to the subjective sensation of better and more tactile bass/midbass from my Neumann KH310s. I hope you're right, because I believe all the speakers being discussed here easily can achieve >100db in the 100-300hz range.

Remember to take dynamic headroom into account. Playback levels of 90 dB can suddenly become 110-120 dB dynamic peaks.

I think the 8351 will be an excellent choice.

 

[PresbyByrd]

Hi, this might have been offered but I after page 2, I skipped ahead . My room is only a smidge bigger and I have Adam S3V’s. You can get them for about $5,500 a pair (under $4,600 if you order from SX Pro in London). They have a nice DSP engine built in. My only beef is that DSP doesn’t play well with Mac. That was a small niggle for me, as I simply used my laptop. Anyway, wonderful and powerful speakers with a great lowend and superb midrange. They have full measurements on the Adam website. I decided to add a pair of Adam Sub10 mkii to get even better control of the lowend. Just another option to consider.

 

[echopraxia]

Hi, this might have been offered but I after page 2, I skipped ahead . My room is only a smidge bigger and I have Adam S3V’s. You can get them for about $5,500 a pair (under $4,600 if you order from SX Pro in London). They have a nice DSP engine built in. My only beef is that DSP doesn’t play well with Mac. That was a small niggle for me, as I simply used my laptop. Anyway, wonderful and powerful speakers with a great lowend and superb midrange. They have full measurements on the Adam website. I decided to add a pair of Adam Sub10 mkii to get even better control of the lowend. Just another option to consider.

The review of the Adam S2V here would turn me away from them, as the frequency response also aligns with my experience listening to some slightly lower end Adam models in-store a while ago: I found it to be a bit bright and harsh on my ears, and my ears are historically very intolerant (comfort/fatigue-wise) of treble boosts or spikes.

While the overall review of this speaker was generally positive, the 'shelf' response at 500hz, the increasing treble response thereafter, and the overall roughness of the on-axis and off-axis response is something that disqualifies this speaker from my personal list of candidates at this price range (<$10k).

For side-by-side comparison, here is the Genelec 8341A spin from ASR:

The only negative comments on the Genelec 8341A was lack of SPL power, but I'm pretty sure the Genelec 8351B will be sufficient for me since I generally don't listen nearly as loudly as some people here do.

 

[q3cpma]

The review of the Adam S2V here would turn me away from them, as the frequency response also aligns with my experience listening to some slightly lower end Adam models in-store a while ago: I found it to be a bit bright and harsh on my ears, and my ears are historically very intolerant (comfort/fatigue-wise) of treble boosts or spikes.

View attachment 64225

While the overall review of this speaker was generally positive, the 'shelf' response at 500hz, the increasing treble response thereafter, and the overall roughness of the on-axis and off-axis response is something that disqualifies this speaker from my personal list of candidates at this price range (<$10k).

There are also small resonances around 2 kHz, which is probably due to the less well built cabinet (looks like the same as standard MDF monitor, maybe thicker); ADAM always striked me as a very good company that never went the last mile. Add to that the financial problems and various buyouts.

 

[PresbyByrd]

The review of the Adam S2V here would turn me away from them, as the frequency response also aligns with my experience listening to some slightly lower end Adam models in-store a while ago: I found it to be a bit bright and harsh on my ears, and my ears are historically very intolerant (comfort/fatigue-wise) of treble boosts or spikes.

View attachment 64225

While the overall review of this speaker was generally positive, the 'shelf' response at 500hz, the increasing treble response thereafter, and the overall roughness of the on-axis and off-axis response is something that disqualifies this speaker from my personal list of candidates at this price range (<$10k).

For side-by-side comparison, here is the Genelec 8341A spin from ASR:

View attachment 64226

The only negative comments on the Genelec 8341A was lack of SPL power, but I'm pretty sure the Genelec 8351B will be sufficient for me since I generally don't listen nearly as loudly as some people here do.

Yea, they are definitely not everyone’s cup of tea. But having owned both the S2V’s and the S3V’s, they are two different animals.

 

[pierre]

Approximately 11 feet x 9 feet, and I'm able to configure listening distance anywhere between 5 feet to 2 feet (whatever sounds best).

That said, I would prefer for a speaker of this price to scale up to rooms at least a bit larger than this in case I move in the future to a place with different floor plan. However, I do expect that this listening distance range would not change significantly no matter what, since these speakers would most likely be tethered to my work-from-home desktop computer setup no matter what.

But I do accept that if I ever move this setup into a large open floor plan (just for the sake of example), I can't expect there to be much of a bass room gain like there is in this room. So it's okay if these speakers don't have massive bass capabilities to handle such scenarios -- I do accept that a subwoofer may be required in such a case.

i would tell 2x8341+7370 or 2x8351 or 2x8361. 8361 are huge but you get used to it. the sub is changing the performance. I did try today in my room and I much prefer the first combination to the last one. I don’t have the 8351 so cannot tell. The sub also help smooth the in room response.

another point: with bass light music (Piano) I cannot tell the 8341 and 8361 apart Frustrating as it is. I pushed the volume to 100db+ and then of course the bigger one wins.

 

[detlev24]

Ok, I’m 99.9% sure at this point I’ll be going with the Genelec 8351B. Then, if it proves insufficient in bass output, I’ll later consider the addition of a Genelec sub. [...]

Definitely a great choice! And sooner or later, there will be subwoofer(s). Not because of aiming for deafness by listening to the max. rated SPL; but because of different sensitivity vs. frequencies of our hearing and because of headroom [+ visceral impact]; which is not only important for home theatre use, but as well for classical music and some other music genres.

I would like to mention another, in my opinion, interesting approach by Dynaudio. I am aware that many people on ASR would not even look closer at the Core series, due to lack of a comparable waveguide. However, every design choice has its pros and cons and thus, I personally would not discharge them by default. I gathered some information via their support channel, which might be of interest to somebody:

General:

• The floor standing Confidence models do come with a waveguide [DDC lens], which aims to lower reflections from ceiling and floor at more distant listening positions; which is not necessary for the Confidence 20 and Core series loudspeakers, according to the developers at Dynaudio. The reason they mentioned is, that the effect with typically closer listening distances for these models would be of less impact + regarding the Core series, professional studios are believed to be acoustically well treated for reflections, anyways. The waveguide on the Confidence 30/50/60 is open to the sides, for a wider horizontal dispersion.
• Time alignment of the tweeter, over an increased listening distance, is another reason for the waveguide on the Confidence 30/50/60. This is done by DSP on the Core series.

Core series:

• Dynaudio is working on a tool for simple driver replacement; should somebody manage to burn the drivers one day.^^ Any replacement driver will come with a calibration code, which has to be entered via a service tool. Thus, any driver and any loudspeaker will deliver basically the same performance; aiming for easy serviceability. // Firmware updates will provide further loudspeaker tuning over time, if found to improve sound quality - development did not stop yet.
• The DSP is user friendly and aims for intuitive use by its backside controls. Of course, one can use further external room EQ on top of that!
• Perfect integration with the Core Sub, which by specifications extends lower than any comparable Genelec subwoofer. Note: The Core Sub requires external bass management (e.g., to set an individual phase), if the built-in DSP options do not suffice. // Dirac Live 2 with soon-to-be released Bass Management should be the easiest solution; which I can recommend in any case with no equivalent on-board solution.
• They do have an auto-standby feature and electronic noise floor is lower than on my JBL 708P, if I recall correctly from listening at a friend's place. AES3 inputs are available on all models. // Similar to Genelec's offerings.
• Driver rotation of the MF/HF-module [Orbit baffle] on the Core 59 allows for flexible setup in upright position or placed on its side.

The Core series is made to provide high SPL, where needed, at low distortion. I would love to see measurements! Their "Jupiter" measurement facility, which is non-anechoic, should provide confidence that a lot of thought is being put into loudspeaker development at Dynaudio.

So overall, I would give consideration to a pair of Core 59 [according to Dynaudio, up to 4 meters or ~13 feet listening distance for best performance] + Core Sub(s). The system's overall performance should be exceptionally good in any real room; but yes - every choice is about compromises.

For decent measurements of a similar - but completely different - design approach, see Focal Trio11 Be [EN translation].

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Remember to take dynamic headroom into account. Playback levels of 90 dB can suddenly become 110-120 dB dynamic peaks.

I think the 8351 will be an excellent choice.

What songs are you listening to with 90 dB average and 120 dB peaks?

 

[q3cpma]

I would like to mention another, in my opinion, interesting approach by Dynaudio. I am aware that many people on ASR would not even look closer at the Core series, due to lack of a comparable waveguide.

You'll find that people here are mostly worried about the lack of manufacturer measurements on a product that plays in Genelec or Neumann's price category.

That Core Sub is extremely pricy too (3500€), you're hitting between the 7370 and 7380 here; which can go stupidly loud if you want them to (that new 7380 looks especially beastly). And for that, you don't even get grills nor handles (and it looks like there aren't any phase controls either in the buttons or the DSP (!)).

 

[detlev24]

You'll find that people here are mostly worried about the lack of manufacturer measurements on a product that plays in Genelec or Neumann's price category.

That Core Sub is extremely pricy too (3500€), you're hitting between the 7370 and 7380 here; which can go stupidly loud if you want them (that new 7380 looks especially beastly). And for that, you don't even get grills nor handles (and it looks like there aren't any phase controls either in the buttons or the DSP (!)).

Those are valid points; although, things like grills or handles are less important features to some people. However, I would not want to accuse Dynaudio or any other company of hiding a bad performance, by holding back on measurements... I prefer no measurements over for marketing purposes, "highly customized" ones. Maybe the lack of an industry-wide (accepted) standard makes things more complicated - I do not know.

Somebody should finally measure those loudspeakers for us!

There is an old article by Dr. Sean Olive about The Science and Marketing of Sound Quality; unfortunately, his blog seems not to be maintained anymore.

 

[Absolute]

What songs are you listening to with 90 dB average and 120 dB peaks?

None. But I watch movies

 

[q3cpma]

Those are valid points; although, things like grills or handles are less important features to some people. However, I would not want to accuse Dynaudio or any other company of hiding a bad performance, by holding back on measurements... I prefer no measurements over for marketing purposes, "highly customized" ones. Maybe the lack of an industry-wide (accepted) standard makes things more complicated - I do not know. Somebody should finally measure those loudspeakers for us!

There is an old article by Dr. Sean Olive about The Science and Marketing of Sound Quality; unfortunately, his blog seems not to be maintained anymore.

I don't think this is an acceptable excuse, and as a loudspeaker manufacturer, you're supposed to know that on-axis and horizontal off-axis is the most important and bare minimum. I'd say something about THD/SPL by frequency being useful too (missing from Genelec, sadly). You can do it like Neumann and simply dump a lot of it, we can sort it out.

The real point of measurements is that you stake your reputation on them: you simply can't lie, otherwise you're toast the next time your speaker is measured. Like JBL, you can only wonder why when they got an incredible anechoic chamber.

By the way, they give a partial but very useful spinorama with contours for their LYD monitors, so I really don't know why they play it like this for the Core serie. You should be worried about it, too.