Schiit speaks

[HiFidFan]

Noooooo not car analogies

 

[Skeptic]

Something in Jason’s article seems to have triggered some raw nerve with some people. Not sure what he said that’s so audacious to some.

With all due respect, having the equipment to measure something doesn’t make one an expert. It is useful information, and IMHO it needs to be accepted as such. But again, we humans are so much more complicated, and Jason did mentioned few factors that affect our decisions. He doesn’t need to be an “audibly expert”. What’s the definition for that anyway?

Two units that have similar measurements, can sound quite different. How does one measures for tone for example. For warm vs natural vs ...

Human hearing perception is not objective always.

If you want to take the limited measurements that benchmarks provide, as word of God, it’s your decision. I for one wouldn’t buy a piece of equipment without hearing it with my own ears, or if not possible, would check the return policy as Plan B.

Lastly, how would one design a system without knowing the requirement?!? Since you stated he is a [audio] system designer, I would presume he is an expert in his field. No?

 

[amirm]

With all due respect, having the equipment to measure something doesn’t make one an expert.

No. Fortunately there is a lot more we have here than that including 20 years of expertise in psychoacoustics and controlled testing.

 

[amirm]

Two units that have similar measurements, can sound quite different. How does one measures for tone for example. For warm vs natural vs ...

We can't measure imagination or fantasies. Do a blind test where you don't know which is which and reliably find the warmer gear and then we can show you measurements to back that. Otherwise, what is in your head is not measurable relative to what arrives in your ears. Don't confuse these two.

 

[amirm]

Lastly, how would one design a system without knowing the requirement?!? Since you stated he is a [audio] system designer, I would presume he is an expert in his field. No?

Not at all. A car driver is not the same as an engine designer. Researching into audibility of impairments does not require one bit of electronic knowledge. Therefore we know for a fact that the electronic design shares little with audibility concerns.

Really, this is the one of the largest myths in audio. I grew up as an analog designer. I have an electrical engineering degree. I have managed teams of designers. Yet none of that remotely prepared me for perception of audio and audible differences between gear.

Worship a hero for the right reasons. Admire Jason's electronic design, packaging, power usage, etc. But not small sonic differences that require proper knowledge of psychoacoustics, how to conduct controlled testing, critical listening skills, etc.

Watch this video I made on what it takes to be a good listener and training required:

Nothing on Jason's resume shows competence or experience in this area.

 

[Skeptic]

Amir, excuse my ignorance, but how do you measure tone? Are you saying that all the characteristics of the sound can be measured via your reports?

If all it would take to design the greatest sounding in the world are a bunch of standard measurements, I’d thinks that the industry would just standardize on that one design and stop producing anything else.

 

[amirm]

Adding on, if knowledge of electronic design made you an expert in audibility of distortions, etc., then there is no hope for audiophiles who have zero such experience!

 

[Tks]

Cant tell if I just read someone that had one too many drinks. Or just bait thanks to the marketing prowess on display from tje reletive masters at Schiit.

I can make some pretty lengthy posts about the smallest thing. I just dont get the point of what Jason really wants to do here. Interesting read I guess, but why?

 

[Racheski]

Have you actually read Jason's post?!? Or you just like to bash people?

Yes I read it, carefully. Did you read it, carefully?
He first hooks his audience in by describing stereotypes of objectivists vs subjectivists. I don’t think he genuinely believes either stereotype is accurate. Do you actually think that is how people around here talk? He then lists some general causes of perceptual bias. That’s about it.

 

[amirm]

Amir, excuse my ignorance, but how do you measure tone?

1. Frequency response.
2. Distortion levels (at the extreme when they become audible).

But again, we can't measure what doesn't exist. If you think you have heard tonality differences but can't pass a test when you don't know which is which, then there is nothing to determine, measure or prove.

Are you saying that all the characteristics of the sound can be measured via your reports?

Measured? Have you not read my reviews? Many include listening tests and explanation of science and engineering. Measurements are one leg of audibility stool. You need to grasp all of that in order to make informed decisions.

One thing measurements can do strongly is rule out audibility. Once there, you can jump up and down all you want and the answer won't change. I am pretty sure when I turn on my stereo, you won't hear it. When distortions are very high then we can use psychoacoustics to determine whether there is something audible. For this, you need psychoacoustics knowledge which I use to explain audibility in measurements. Look for such notations on my measurements.

 

[Skeptic]

Adding on, if knowledge of electronic design made you an expert in audibility of distortions, etc., then there is no hope for audiophiles who have zero such experience!

We are going a bit of sophisms here. I don’t need to know how to cook to appreciate a great dish. On the other hand the chef better know what good food tastes like. audiofiles are the patrons, Jason is the cook.

Amir, you provide great information, thanks for the site.

 

[amirm]

We are going a bit of sophisms here. I don’t need to know how to cook to appreciate a great dish. On the other hand the chef better know what good food tastes like. audiofiles are the patrons, Jason is the cook.

A chef in this context would be the person creating music. Jason is not that. He is making you a plate to put your food (music) on. If he delivers a very dirty dish, then it might impact the taste of the food. His job should be to create the cleanest plate he can because that is what his competitors are doing.

 

[Tks]

Amir, excuse my ignorance, but how do you measure tone? Are you saying that all the characteristics of the sound can be measured via your reports?

If all it would take to design the greatest sounding in the world are a bunch of standard measurements, I’d thinks that the industry would just standardize on that one design and stop producing anything else.

How do you measure? Are you asking for schematics of hardware and software devices involved, or are you asking for the mathematical theories? Or are you asking for how something like an Ap555 is used? Or are you asking how a tone difference is quantified?

You can probably get quick answers here to these things, or seek out plugin designers that can explain to you how things like "warmth" emulation works. Since they mess with tones all day. They're able to do so because it works on a system of metrics, metrics definitionally being something defined by a standard set of measurable properties.

As far as "well if we know what it takes to make the fastest car, why not standardize that, and have every car be just as fast?"

In this field its actually worse, you'll have groups that want to buy devices that dont fulfill their definitional requirements (like wanting AMPs that don't simply amplify the signal, but instead add distortions purposely). Basically the demand for non perfect performance is still there, driven by a peculiarly illogical group of people to some degree (you never see this sort of stuff being offered to the general public like Apple making a pair of headphones or music player that sounds like a tube amp).

 

[Skeptic]

The beauty of sophisms is that you can always reply with your own.

Again, if all a system designer would have to do is to meet your measurements, why would anyone design anything else??? So for example, what could anyone else do to beat Benchmark? Price and exterior design? Should someone inform all the other manufacturers?

I repeat my point: those measurements do not measure everything that makes the sound. You are not doing full fluid analysis and all the permutations possible. You are also not a speaker, amp, etc designer. some companies like KEF for example employ real PHDs, with peer reviewed scientific papers. Those are real experts. I agree we should trust them.

 

[Tks]

The beauty of sophisms is that you can always reply with your own.

Again, if all a system designer would have to do is to meet your measurements, why would anyone design anything else??? So for example, what could anyone else do to beat Benchmark? Price and exterior design? Should someone inform all the other manufacturers?

I repeat my point: those measurements do not measure everything that makes the sound. You are not doing full fluid analysis and all the permutations possible. You are also not a speaker, amp, etc designer. some companies like KEF for example employ real PHDs, with peer reviewed scientific papers. Those are real experts. I agree we should trust them.

You make the positive claim his measurements arent measuring something you label as "everything". So if you want to remove the ironic sophistry label heading your way, youre going to need to prove your claim either by showing what other measurement is missing for audibility's sake, or prove there is a phenomena experienced by your ears, but missed by measurements.

 

[Skeptic]

How do you measure? Are you asking for schematics of hardware and software devices involved, or are you asking for the mathematical theories? Or are you asking for how something like an Ap555 is used? Or are you asking how a tone difference is quantified?

No, my point was that those measurements are only a subset of what define an amp. For example, most speakers are harder to drive at some frequencies. That’s not something easy to measure, but it would make a huge difference in the real world.

Some amps will drive those speakers better than others. This is an example of things not captured in those measurements.

I am not against measurements, I think Amir is doing a very good job. My only point is that unless one would employ an army of testers, all this measurement are just a set of sub measurements.

 

[witwald]

For example, most speakers are harder to drive at some frequencies. That’s not something easy to measure, but it would make a huge difference in the real world.

The impedance response of a loudspeaker as a function of frequency is a measurement that is routinely undertaken by many. It's not all that difficult a measurement, and it provides good numerical data as to how difficult that loudspeaker will be to drive for an amplifier. From that data it is possible to routinely identify impedance minima and phase response swings that could cause the amplifier problems. From that same impedance measurement, it is possible to obtain the frequency response deviation that will be present in amplifiers that have low damping factor values. All of that data makes a huge difference to understanding how a real amplifier interacts with real loudspeakers in the real world. Ignoring the readily available/obtainable data is not a useful course of action.

 

[Tks]

No, my point was that those measurements are only a subset of what define an amp. For example, most speakers are harder to drive at some frequencies. That’s not something easy to measure, but it would make a huge difference in the real world.

I am not against measurements, I think Amir is doing a very good job. My only point is that unless one would employ an army of testers, all this measurement are just a set of sub measurements.

Yeah I'm simply not sure why you imagine measuring speaker sensitivity and impedance values are that tough for anyone with the equipment to do so. Likewise output impedance and power rating of an amplifier to said speakers.

I'm not understanding what makes something a "sub measurement" or what exactly is the topic of contention besides the need for such a term. If I take a frequency reaponse measurement of a piece of music at a specific time in the song, its not novel or controversial to say with that one measurement, I cant extrapolate what the dynamic range of the entire song is.

That doesnt mean dynamic range cant be measured simply because I chose not to measure for it in this instance. If your main critique this whole time is the fact that a single unifying metric doesnt exist to explain away all audio phenomena -- that's just not something anyone would be surprised to hear, nor would anyone care to disagree.

Your prior posts insinuated something far different, likewise with appeal to authority fallacies like the last post about KEF hiring PhD's thus should be trusted de facto for some odd reason. Or saying there are things that cant be measured, and requesting the falsification of a claim simply asserted while it's nothing more than question begging.

 

[Skeptic]

“. If your main critique this whole time is the fact that a single unifying metric doesnt exist to explain away all audio phenomena -- that's just not something anyone would be surprised to hear, nor would anyone care to disagree.” - this was one example of things that are not measured by Amir. I don’t fault him for not having it, it was just an example of a factor that has real life implications. There are many others similar measurment points.

Regarding the PhDs, that was a bit of an left handed response to the remark about Jason not being an “expert”. None of us has as far as I know published any scientific papers, nor do any of us hold a PhD in ... audiology.

Attacking Jason, especially when he never said don’t trust measurments ( he said “measurments alone”), is a bit unbecoming.

 

[solderdude]

Nothing on Jason's resume shows competence or experience in this area.

The fact that only 1 or 2 years ago he started to do blind testing while he has been 'at it' for 30 years might say something about this as well.

When mr. Skeptic is so sure he can tell 2 similar measuring amps (they don't exist, they all measure different) apart and there is more than the electrical signal that drives transducers then why isn't that proven yet ?
If he (or any of his buddies) can prove this so easily why hasn't this still been done yet in 2021.

Let's all agree Jason is an experienced and friendly guy with lots of humor and Schitt is one of the few brands that can build affordable stuff that can be considered good enough.