• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Schiit speaks

earlevel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
551
Likes
779
3. Has it occurred to you that perhaps since we live in a noisy ANALOG world that our ears LIKE TO HEAR the analog noise and distortion that comes from vinyl?
Agree with Amir, vinyl noise and distortion is nothing like nature. In fact, it instantly clues the listener to the fact they're listening to a recording. But we listen through that, while trying to play it back as optimally as we can, and imagine the pristine performance underneath. Maybe that's it—we're not fooled in the least listening to an LP (not just the sound, but the manual work we go through to play it), and our brains work to subtract it from the underlying music instead of being distracted by it. At the other end of the spectrum, when we listen to a digital audio stream, maybe we tend to listen for anything that's not perfectly correct. Otherwise, how can some converters or formats (supposedly) be fatiguing, yet we don't say that about listening to vinyl, which certainly must be a lot more constant mental work?

Finally, this is supposed to be a hobby; thus enjoyable. Why is it that so many here seem to NOT be enjoying themselves? If HiFi so awful for you then you need to find a more enjoyable hobby!
I've come to feel that's the allure of listening to vinyl. I don't, to any degree, but still have a couple hundred albums here, and bought another turntable and cartridge in the past year—mainly I got it to copy an album of my old band, but in the process of everything involved, including repair my old PS IVH preamp, while seeing some musician friends rediscover vinyl, has had me thinking about it.

I have Apple Music, I can pull up any song that comes to mind, for the most part, over a nice audio system (studio gear). Often I listen part way through and think of another song and switch to it.

If I want to listen to an LP, I need more time. And have more limited choices. I notice this especially from friends who are getting back into it. Their old albums are gone, they buy an album...and another, and now maybe they have five. Every one of them is precious—and chosen with great thought. They require careful storage and handling. Admire the album cover. Slowly lift the turntable lid. Gently slide the LP from the sleeve, treating it as something delicate that can be damaged. Place it on the turntable, gently clean it, gently drop the needle in the groove. Listen to the whole side of the LP. Admire the album cover again, maybe the lyrics sheet. It's almost a spiritual experience, compared to streaming music or even CDs.

And yes, hobby—maybe I should try another cartridge? Maybe this one is better suited to my classical albums...maybe another turntable will get me closer to the music...

I'm an engineer, I'm drawn more to accuracy, I don't get caught up in the romance of vinyl. But I can see why people get drawn to the experience.
 
Last edited:

garbulky

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Messages
1,510
Likes
827
Agree with Amir, vinyl noise and distortion is nothing like nature. In fact, it instantly clues the listener to the fact they're listening to a recording. But we listen through that, while trying to play it back as optimally as we can, and imagine the pristine performance underneath. Maybe that's it—we're not fooled in the least listening to an LP (not just the sound, but the manual work we go through to play it), and our brains work to subtract out the underlying music instead of being distracted by it. At the other end of the spectrum, when we listen to a digital audio stream, maybe we tend to listen for anything that's not perfectly correct. Otherwise, how can some converters or formats (supposedly) be fatiguing, yet we don't say that about listening to vinyl, which certainly must be a lot more constant mental work?


I've come to feel that's the allure of listening to vinyl. I don't, to any degree, but still have a couple hundred albums here, and bought another turntable and cartridge in the past year—mainly I got it to copy an album of my old band, but in the process of everything involved, including repair my old PS IVH preamp, while seeing some musician friends rediscover vinyl, has had me thinking about it.

I have Apple Music, I can pull up any song that comes to mind, for the most part, over a nice audio system (studio gear). Often I listen part way through and think of another song and switch to it.

If I want to listen to an LP, I need more time. And have more limited choices. I notice this especially from friends who are getting back into it. Their old albums are gone, they buy an album...and another, and now maybe they have five. Every one of them is precious—and chosen with great thought. They require careful storage and handling. Admire the album cover. Slowly lift the turntable lid. Gently slide the LP from the sleeve, treating it as something delicate that can be damaged. Place it on the turntable, gently clean it, gently drop the needle in the groove. Listen to the whole side of the LP. Admire the album cover again, maybe the lyrics sheet. It's almost a spiritual experience, compared to streaming music or even CDs.

And yes, hobby—maybe I should try another cartridge? Maybe this one is better suited to my classical albums...maybe another turntable will get me closer to the music...

I'm an engineer, I'm drawn more to accuracy, I don't get caught up in the romance of vinyl. But I can see why people get drawn to the experience.
We have to keep in mind that these recordings lack proper height information. So pretty much everything we are listening to is incorrect.
 

dpuopolo

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Messages
64
Likes
27
Agree with Amir, vinyl noise and distortion is nothing like nature. In fact, it instantly clues the listener to the fact they're listening to a recording. But we listen through that, while trying to play it back as optimally as we can, and imagine the pristine performance underneath. Maybe that's it—we're not fooled in the least listening to an LP (not just the sound, but the manual work we go through to play it), and our brains work to subtract out the underlying music instead of being distracted by it. At the other end of the spectrum, when we listen to a digital audio stream, maybe we tend to listen for anything that's not perfectly correct. Otherwise, how can some converters or formats (supposedly) be fatiguing, yet we don't say that about listening to vinyl, which certainly must be a lot more constant mental work?


I've come to feel that's the allure of listening to vinyl. I don't, to any degree, but still have a couple hundred albums here, and bought another turntable and cartridge in the past year—mainly I got it to copy an album of my old band, but in the process of everything involved, including repair my old PS IVH preamp, while seeing some musician friends rediscover vinyl, has had me thinking about it.

I have Apple Music, I can pull up any song that comes to mind, for the most part, over a nice audio system (studio gear). Often I listen part way through and think of another song and switch to it.

If I want to listen to an LP, I need more time. And have more limited choices. I notice this especially from friends who are getting back into it. Their old albums are gone, they buy an album...and another, and now maybe they have five. Every one of them is precious—and chosen with great thought. They require careful storage and handling. Admire the album cover. Slowly lift the turntable lid. Gently slide the LP from the sleeve, treating it as something delicate that can be damaged. Place it on the turntable, gently clean it, gently drop the needle in the groove. Listen to the whole side of the LP. Admire the album cover again, maybe the lyrics sheet. It's almost a spiritual experience, compared to streaming music or even CDs.

And yes, hobby—maybe I should try another cartridge? Maybe this one is better suited to my classical albums...maybe another turntable will get me closer to the music...

I'm an engineer, I'm drawn more to accuracy, I don't get caught up in the romance of vinyl. But I can see why people get drawn to the experience.

The reason vinyl sales are back up is because some people literally want to SLOW DOWN. Half the world has ADHD. It's all the choices they are forced to make and ESPECIALLY how many choices they have. This is also why radio listening is down - no one wants to listen through a song they don't like, especially since there's a billion other choices on their phone, computer and TV.
When was the last time you read a book?
A book forces you to slow down. An album too. So does leaving your remote control on the TV (at least you have to actually get up to make a change).
There are other things in play too. Politics has become *calmer* as has Covid-19. That also has helped lower the cortisol flow.
Hopefully, a "calmer, gentler" world will result.
By the way, you speak of accuracy. Right now the state-of-the art is 24 bit, 192 kHz. Quite frankly, you can't get much more accurate then that, as it is far below anyone's threshold of hearing
 

ahofer

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
5,045
Likes
9,148
Location
New York City
I'm definitely enjoying myself. I was absolutely into records as a youngster, spending most of my disposable income at Disc-O-Mat and Tower Records. But I also spent many afternoons at the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts, finding new (to me) records and sampling them to borrow (and tape - gasp!).

With streaming, I have all of that available at home, on my own system, so that's the majority of the pleasure I get.

I've often thought with hifi, it may just be a matter of "good enough". In my last round of auditions, I had a suspicion that I could have ultimately been happy with all but two of the speakers I heard (the Paradigm Personas and ATCs seemed to have obvious and troublesome deficiencies). So I might have taken home KEF, Legacy, or Wilson speakers rather than the Harbeths, and probably been just as happy as *I* 'burned in' to *them*. Mostly I tried to minimize my chances of being long-term irritated - which has happened before, but price and size also played a role. I wish I had been more measurements-oriented, as that might have narrowed things down without the time invested. So no, not unhappy, and still a hobbyist.

OTOH, my 'good enough' is pretty high end by normal peoples' standards, although they will generally agree that my system rewards dedicated listening. They generally don't do a lot of dedicated listening, though, preferring music as background.
 
Last edited:

earlevel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
551
Likes
779
When was the last time you read a book?
Reading one now...when I'm done I'll get back to the other one I was reading.
A book forces you to slow down. An album too. So does leaving your remote control on the TV (at least you have to actually get up to make a change).
There are other things in play too. Politics has become *calmer* as has Covid-19. That also has helped lower the cortisol flow.
Hopefully, a "calmer, gentler" world will result.
Yeah, part of what I meant by the "spiritual" comment.
By the way, you speak of accuracy. Right now the state-of-the art is 24 bit, 192 kHz. Quite frankly, you can't get much more accurate then that, as it is far below anyone's threshold of hearing
Like I said, I'm an engineer. Check my posts, I'm constantly telling people why there is no way they hear the least significant bits of 24-bit audio, no way they can tell if 24-bit audio was dithered or not, etc. Threshold of hearing and noise floor of electronics each being more than a sufficient barrier, and there are still other factors like masking. More than one legendary mastering engineer has told me that they can absolutely hear the 24th bit, one claimed he tested his system to prove it, and he heard it easily.

I think the incredible accuracy we have has allowed some to get a little too imaginative. I've seen some go as far as to speculate that perhaps some of the bad things that go on in the world are a result of subtle irritation from listening to digital audio, which somehow we're not quite getting right. ;)
 

earlevel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
551
Likes
779
Funny thought, extending what I was saying earlier...

Maybe the "problem with digital" is not that it's doing something wrong in conveying the music—making it sound too unnatural. Maybe it's conveying it too well. After all, recordings are unnatural.

That is, pick a recording. The vocals are likely unnaturally bright, like someone is singing straight into your ear canal, yet with a loud a loud signing voice that's been turn down (relative to the brightness that seems to right at your ear). Maybe with an exciter to stir up harmonics that were never there. Many mics have and unnatural response (the ubiquitous U47 is not flat). Compressed and de-essed. Often through transformers if not tubes as well. Close mic'd drums, often with a stereo spread (something you'll never experience in live music without being right at the front of stage), compressed da fuq, maybe transient shaping. Maybe a different reverb on the snare, the toms, the vocal, including different apparent "room" sizes, none of which match the room you're listening in, nor a club you might hear the band at. The vocal ducks the mids in the guitar's close-mic'd cabinet, which might be a combination of a ribbon and an SM57. And the background vocals are autotuned, then duplicated and shifted in multiple copies a few cents down on the left speaker, a few up on the right, then a different factor in the other direction, till three voices sound like 27. Etc. (Then it's probably mixed to sound good on a 4-inch speaker...)

Why would we ever expect that to sound natural and not fatiguing, "if only we had the perfect DAC"? :rolleyes:

Back in the '80s I was auditioning stereo speakers, a bandmate tagged along. Listening to some jazz, he said, "wow, sound like you're right there in the club." The salesman said, "No it doesn't." My friend said, "huh?" The salesman, "You'll never hear the cymbals that bright in a club" (etc.)
 

Puustinen

New Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
1
Likes
3
I'm an engineer

Hello all, another engineer here. I love all the info here on the forum, but relying purely on measurements causes a powerful Déjà-vu to the time, when audio recording side of things shifted to from analog to digital.

In the name of better measurements (distortion, noise floor, linearity), the following things were driven out of studios: analog tape machines, tube and solid state preamps, analog mixing desks and so on. Digital gear was always "closer to the source, much cleaner, superior" to analog gear.

So everyone in happy with digital gear in recording world? Nope. Analog gear is making a comeback. Studios are trying to buy back similar gear they had in the past. Why? Because (for example) the harmonic distortion the those special pieces of gear provide sound pleasant for music listeners. So does analog tape compression and tape hiss (up to a point). Even a thing called analog summing was develop to fight the sterile digital sound.

So having seen this happen, I was immune to falling for measurements when buying home HiFI gear? Of course not. I checked for the cleanest measurements (I could afford) and bough away. What I ended up with was with gear that were missing "soul". When listening to music, I'm looking for the feeling that you get when you stand next to a guitar/bass amp or next to the drum kit on stage.

The clean measuring gear left me with the same feeling like eating vanilla ice cream. Vanilla mixes well with other things, but it will benefit when combined with other tastes/colors. For example my old Benchmark DAC1 would measure horribly against modern day DACs, but still have not not been able to find a modern DAC that would draw me into the music like the DAC1 does.
 
Last edited:

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,403
Likes
24,721
The clean measuring gear left me with the same feeling like eating vanilla ice cream. Vanilla mixes well with other things, but it will benefit when combined with other tastes/colors. For example my old Benchmark DAC1 would measure horribly against modern day DACs, but still have not not been able to find a modern DAC that would draw me into the music like the DAC1 does.
You should try sweet cream ice cream -- which is, in essence, vanilla ice cream sans even the "plain vanilla".
It is very popular in northern New England... and it has become my favorite in recent years.
:cool:

Here's a great example (we were there just this past Saturday with our daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren)
https://www.icecreamkidbeck.com/
They make and sell their own ice cream made from the milk of their own cows. :)
Who needs flavorings?!
 

Foulchet

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Messages
84
Likes
50
Third engineer here.

Maybe tubes, etc. give the impression of a more "natural" sound because it adds imperfection into polished records. I noticed that my tube amp adds a kind of "breath" to the voices, which is what I expect from a microphone or from an acoustic session. So yes it is completely artificial and is not what we can call high-fidelity but it has the (unexpected) side-effect to make the sound more "natural" in a way that it adds imperfection back to the sound.
Many TVS for instance have processing to make the picture look more natural even if we all know that it is a processing engine which makes an artificial job underneath. Purists turn all processing off, but many people just admit that this processing (which is a part of the TV cost) makes the picture more enjoyable.

I agree that we should not mix fidelity with "musicality", which audiophiles do. But we can also measure preference with the scientific method and companies like Bose etc. have been sucessful by researching about psychoacoustics.
It is a bit easy to justify all trends by "it is just the hype".
 

earlevel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
551
Likes
779
Hello all, another engineer here. I love all the info here on the forum, but relying purely on measurements causes a powerful Déjà-vu to the time, when audio recording side of things shifted to from analog to digital.

In the name of better measurements (distortion, noise floor, linearity), the following things were driven out of studios: analog tape machines, tube and solid state preamps, analog mixing desks and so on. Digital gear was always "closer to the source, much cleaner, superior" to analog gear.
You make good points, I have just a minor point-of view divergence to try on you here. The interest of better measurements didn't drive analog gear out, cost, convenience, reliability and repeatability did. Much as CDs didn't replace LPs just because they measured (or even sounded) better, it got rid of concern over tracking for, wear of the stylus, hum susceptibility, quality of reproduction (the vinyl quality of the pressing), portability (we're were never going to play an LP in a car, boombox, on-person). And even though the audio is clearly better, we gave up a lot in the experience—I think one of the allures of the vinyl resurgence is that (compared to CD, but especially streaming audio) vinyl commands being treated with reverence. You don't have countless tunes you can pull up and change your mind on mid-song. You select one of a relatively few albums you have, carefully remove it from the sleeve, clean it, play a whole side, maybe while admiring the album cover.

I still have a working 8-track r-r here, a couple of 2-tracks. Pain in the ass, and tape is (and was) expensive. And the recorded music on it deteriorates. I have an old tune I need to get off a reel, I'll have to bake it and try to get a pass without gumming up the heads. All while the digital stereo mix is available and without change since the day it was mixed. ADAT took over in its day because 16-24 tracks recorders could be be afforded by few, while that number of tracks on ADAT could be in anyone's spare-room studio.

So everyone in happy with digital gear in recording world? Nope. Analog gear is making a comeback. Studios are trying to buy back similar gear they had in the past. Why? Because (for example) the harmonic distortion the those special pieces of gear provide sound pleasant for music listeners. So does analog tape compression and tape hiss (up to a point). Even a thing called analog summing was develop to fight the sterile digital sound.
Just point of view, but I don't consider digital inferior. Analog equipment is clearly inferior. But that's not to say it doesn't sound better. Notice we don't necessarily go for the designs of peak analog, we often go for much earlier designs. All analog gear is a compromise (forget tubes and transistors for a moment—transformers?). Over decades of development, an enormous number of designs eventually ended up in the dump. The compromises that had a sound more people liked endured and became the classics.

Fewer audible compromises are necessary with digital, most of it is in the bandlimiting filters. AND, the entire recording process is heavily compromised, we rarely even try to recreate live music and far as rock/pop (orchestral and choral another story), mics don't capture reality (go to a recording forum, check out mic comparisons, the highest form of praise is something like "wow, you sound just like a record"—not "wow, it sounds like you're right in my room"), we have multiple virtual rooms/plates in one recording, etc. Maybe a huge fault of digital is letting it through without the shellacking analog gear imparts. Even if not, the fact is we don't need to make the sort of compromises that result in particularly good, or poor, enjoyability. Pretty much the story of what we eat—we'd have pretty uninteresting food choices if refrigerators existed from day 1.

So having seen this happen, I was immune to falling for measurements when buying home HiFI gear? Of course not. I checked for the cleanest measurements (I could afford) and bough away. What I ended up with was with gear that were missing "soul". When listening to music, I'm looking for the feeling that you get when you stand next to a guitar/bass amp or next to the drum kit on stage.

The clean measuring gear left me with the same feeling like eating vanilla ice cream. Vanilla mixes well with other things, but it will benefit when combined with other tastes/colors. For example my old Benchmark DAC1 would measure horribly against modern day DACs, but still have not not been able to find a modern DAC that would draw me into the music like the DAC1 does.
In the past few months, my purchases have been a hand-made (in Russia) mic, new "old tech" (Neve-based) mic pre, 1776 and Pultec clones (and waiting on an LA-2A clone). I've never had much faith in plugin reproducing some of these nuances (and I am a plugin developer). A few do a pretty good job, but it's kind of crazy that we love the results of some of those old analog compromises so much, we try our best to recreate them digitally.
 
Last edited:

earlevel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
551
Likes
779
Third engineer here.

Maybe tubes, etc. give the impression of a more "natural" sound because it adds imperfection into polished records. I noticed that my tube amp adds a kind of "breath" to the voices, which is what I expect from a microphone or from an acoustic session. So yes it is completely artificial and is not what we can call high-fidelity but it has the (unexpected) side-effect to make the sound more "natural" in a way that it adds imperfection back to the sound.
Many TVS for instance have processing to make the picture look more natural even if we all know that it is a processing engine which makes an artificial job underneath. Purists turn all processing off, but many people just admit that this processing (which is a part of the TV cost) makes the picture more enjoyable.

I agree that we should not mix fidelity with "musicality", which audiophiles do. But we can also measure preference with the scientific method and companies like Bose etc. have been sucessful by researching about psychoacoustics.
It is a bit easy to justify all trends by "it is just the hype".
To your tubes comment...I was reading, on another board, Michael Carnes (more recently of Exponential Audio, formerly of Lexicon) chat about things like the Lexicon sound, and how much of that he incorporated in the Exponential reverbs. It's well-known that the old Lexicon devices were low resolution, but had that rich sound. He said that what many called "depth" of the sound of the devices produced was really that the reverb decayed into noise due to the low precision—something that you might assume would give you the opposite of depth. Anyway, that, tubes, transformers—some of the things I meant by the term "shellacking" of the audio with vintage analog gear. Some would call it "glue" (say, a certain vintage preamp or compressor really glues the vocal or acoustic guitar to the track), etc..
 
D

Deleted member 35396

Guest
I am a fan of Schiit even though I don't own any of their products. I tried, but nothing is in stock where I live (Vietnam).
I became a fan because the company's marketing. I accepted it. I read Jason's book.
And I am an experienced advertising guy.

When it comes to audio, I am in this objectivist's camp. Maybe not as hardcore as most of you. But I believe in blind listening tests, measurements etc. and use them as tools to make my purchasing decisions.

And I am fully aware that some old Schiit didnt measure well.

BUT I think there is nothing wrong with great marketing. If we - as a group of objectivists - want to convince more people to join our "cause", we need better marketing, not more aggressive arguments.
 

Audiodirt

New Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
1
Likes
0
It's on his LinkedIn page and conflicting on the other.
I've drawn my conclusion.

It appears to be a different Jason Stoddard with the dodgy education claims. Their histories probably got crossed on third party sites.
 
Top Bottom