digicidal
Major Contributor
If there is a more compelling argument for separates... I can't think of one - especially at that price! 
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Roksan Attessa Streaming Amplifier Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Advertised THD numbers were conservative as they were all adhering the FTC requirements which stated the power, bandwidth, load and distortion figure. The number could not exceed the advertised figure at any point across the advertised bandwidth and any power from 250mW to rated output. A big ask.
We had ratings at full rated power at any frequency into the 0.00x% and by the 80s we had numbers at 0.001% for preamps. Again, over the entire audible bandwidth.
Amplifiers being tested here on ASR at 1kHz isn't comparable. And most of the SINAD leaders are pretty crap when compared apples to apples with the top gear from the 1980s.
Here are examples from the early 80s that I am familiar with.
Technics SU-V9 Stereo Integrated Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine
Technics SU-V303 Stereo Integrated Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine
Galliardist
Major Contributor
In the real world, what's comparable between then and now though? How many more "difficult to drive" speakers are there today, for example? And what in terms of complete systems from before CD would be comparable with the best today?
On price, it looks like my first receiver, a JVC R-S11, is remarkably underpowered compared to what I can buy in class AB today, let alone class D. But it is a receiver of course. Then again, I can have an amp with a DAC today, and in system terms forgo the turntable and tuner: so I guess we could single out the Yamaha A-S501, which according to the inflation calculator is cheaper in real terms. Which is the golden age allowing for inflation, then?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #125
My tests are more sophisticated and higher precision than anything that existed then. You well know that I run power sweeps at multiple frequencies:
Graphs in general were hard to find at the time. You basically got a lot of single number measurements. Nothing like the FFTs I show now.
Galliardist
Major Contributor
And of course the few older amps reviewed here (Marantz and Yamaha, I haven't gone to look for models) still did pretty well when tested here, but not as well as the best modern amps at much lower prices in real terms. Still, a bit of inaudible extra noise at 30 years old isn't that much of an issue. I suspect performance hasn't really moved that much in 30 years, and among the better amps at 40, apart from the extra power to drive the greater number of low impedance speakers today.My tests are more sophisticated and higher precision than anything that existed then. You well know that I run power sweeps at multiple frequencies:
Graphs in general were hard to find at the time. You basically got a lot of single number measurements. Nothing like the FFTs I show now.
Same for subjective reviews, unfortunately. The Absolute Sound review claims that this one has "different watts" - what's the graph for that?
Huh? Are you referring to the type of power? Any chance you have a link for that webpage?
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Roksan Attessa Streaming Amplifier - The Absolute Sound
Roksan Attessa Streaming Amplifier - This new integrated amplifier with a built-in streaming DAC hits all the right notes, Neil Gader has the good news.
www.theabsolutesound.com
The special watts thing usually either refers to a better ability to drive low impedance, or the way the amp distorts at high outputs. I don't particularly see either of these in the numbers though. I do miss the obvious quite often.
Of course, that's when it actually does mean something
Huh imho the alleged crappiness of Japanese hifi electronics was just clever marketing by the British and American's et al . and they won, sadly (which is telling for our real ability to hear stuff ) . And i bought it at the time .
In hindsight the cottage quality off British stuff of the 80' and 90's is much worse than a nice SONY ES or similar stuff like a Luxman of that era . Fit and finish and build quality was on whole different level, a musical fidelity or Sugden looked like it where made in someone's garage ( and probably was )
This myth was still in full swing in circa 1986 or so when i was young and became interested in HiFi . And ofcourse i did not want Japanese hifi !
In reality there where only a few British brand that still made quality electronics about then an example was QUAD ?
The Brits and Americans where probably class leaders in the 60's and early 70's but the industry was reorganized . i remember my uncle has made in California Marantz products
What's infuriating with brands like Roksan is that they are late comers riding on the coat-tails of the mere reputation of good old British hifi ? and the marketing still worked in their favor . There was a rising trend and popularity in British hifi even in the 90's and even new brands where emerging after they technically where beaten by the Japanese ? Only trough the strength of marketting and the so called hifi press where they able to convince all of thier greatness? Why the hell does brands like Roksan or Sugden still exists is a mystery to me ?
Loudspeakers are a different matter here some Europeans brands have not lost its engineering edge.
) . And i bought it at the time .In hindsight the cottage quality off British stuff of the 80' and 90's is much worse than a nice SONY ES or similar stuff like a Luxman of that era . Fit and finish and build quality was on whole different level, a musical fidelity or Sugden looked like it where made in someone's garage ( and probably was )
This myth was still in full swing in circa 1986 or so when i was young and became interested in HiFi . And ofcourse i did not want Japanese hifi !
In reality there where only a few British brand that still made quality electronics about then an example was QUAD ?
The Brits and Americans where probably class leaders in the 60's and early 70's but the industry was reorganized . i remember my uncle has made in California Marantz products
What's infuriating with brands like Roksan is that they are late comers riding on the coat-tails of the mere reputation of good old British hifi ? and the marketing still worked in their favor . There was a rising trend and popularity in British hifi even in the 90's and even new brands where emerging after they technically where beaten by the Japanese ? Only trough the strength of marketting and the so called hifi press where they able to convince all of thier greatness? Why the hell does brands like Roksan or Sugden still exists is a mystery to me
?Loudspeakers are a different matter here some Europeans brands have not lost its engineering edge.
It's exactly what I mean... And same is happening now with made in China as then made in Japan, and still insisting on dividing the world between guys in charge of mass production for economical reasons while the guys who design still belong to our part of the world, and we feel more secure when told that the gear, though proudly made in PRC has also (an more importantly...) been proudly designed in Europe or USA.
And the part of truth is that current chinese brands and factories are bound to implement circuits based on chips designed in occidental countries, countries that have also become totally incompetent from the manufacturing point of view and their brands are bound to charge (like all the survivors of the Hi-End crowd) absolutely insanely premium prices and this apparently works because, like Roksan, NAD, etc... they still have a name...
Galliardist
Major Contributor
A couple of points:
Firstly, where the device is made is irrelevant to quality. How it's made isn't. Production engineering (changes to designs in production, to be specific) and quality control matter: and designs need not to overstress components.
Secondly, chips. How often is it that chips fail, no matter what they are, assuming they are used within the design guidelines? This is a genuine question, because I'm not aware of the answer in audio.
Thirdly, what does "Designed in the UK" mean anyway? Does what leaves the CAD system in the UK actually equate to what gets built wherever else?
Fourthly, there is another paradigm change to take into account, between older companies building a range at different prices (eg the Marantz amplifier range, which appears to improve in spec and build according to price) and some kind of cost-plus method of pricing used by newer companies, which may see different prices for similar items and even cases where cheaper items may be the better built. It explains a lot, outside of the really ludicrous pricing that goes on.
For many years, more than I would like to admit, I would look forward to the latest What HiFi or the assessment of a particular piece of kit by one audio forum or another.
Most were subjective and in hindsight ridiculous in their conclusions without the benefit of measuring.
Roksan was a particular favourite of the hifi press.
Well done Amir for exposing their incompetence and also their negligence in promoting poorly performing gear.
You will need to fortify yourself against the backlash from these companies, if it has not already started.
Most were subjective and in hindsight ridiculous in their conclusions without the benefit of measuring.
Roksan was a particular favourite of the hifi press.
Well done Amir for exposing their incompetence and also their negligence in promoting poorly performing gear.
You will need to fortify yourself against the backlash from these companies, if it has not already started.
So recognisable.
Roksan was one of the first 'serious' brands I learned about, through WHF indeed, which was kind of my bible back then.
Turns out they're mostly nice faceplates. If you like the style. Which I don't really.
I am 73 and I was never under the impression that American and Japanese Hi-Fi were crap. That was your phrase I am objecting.
These were not crap. They measured well (for the period) and they looked the business. Do you think the British garage Hi-Fi scene was incepted to compete with these "crap" devices?
Imho, the "real" designers are the guys that design the chips at Xmos, AKM, ESS, TI, Infineon, etc... Gear producers and finished products brand owners have become mere implementers and some are better readers of apllication notes and better "doers" than others... Also targetting different price points and users... You have brands like Topping aiming at kind of high standards and brands like Aiyima aiming at more popular demand. In my case, after years of using picky underground audiophile gear I have become happy enough with a set of Topping PA3s for my mains tweeters and mids and a couple of Aiyima monoblocks mini subwoofer amplifiers, only questionning the mess involved with all these separated power suplly units...
Lol, I hated these in those days... But as vintage gear, they are lovely!I am 73 and I was never under the impression that American and Japanese Hi-Fi were crap. That was your phrase I am objecting.
These were not crap. They measured well (for the period) and they looked the business. Do you think the British garage Hi-Fi scene was incepted to compete with these "crap" devices?
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At least we now know that they were crap in your mind but there is nothing tangible to support that feeling.
True but thats what hifi has ever been aboutAt least we now know that they were crap in your mind but there is nothing tangible to support that feeling.
I respectfully disagree.
Here is Julian Hirsh doing equipment testing on Hi-Fi Stereo Review in 1975. @John Atkinson started publishing tests on Hi-Fi News in 1976 and since 1986 he is publishing at Stereophile. For the enquiring mind, objective tests had been around as long as Hi-Fi.
I never cared too much about the debate on "objectivism" vs "subjectivism" and always found that guys with supposedly solid technical knowledge always try to impress guys lacking of It. Hence all these tons of reviews issued since the late 40s, first redacted by the engineers and designers, and progressively dominated from the 70s by simply money driven gurús reputation makers and story tellers, from Atkinson or Hiraga, to Darko and similar...
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