Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[Sal1950]

This should get me laughed right off the forum, but I've heard tons of sound systems (stereo and surround), and have to say I've never heard anything sound as good as an NAD for AV. My ears aren't objective like your tests

That's the rub. Your ears haven't any objective standard to compare against..
Good to you may be a tonal preference that's completely different than what the artist/engineers intended you to hear.
Here's the deal, the numbers don't lie, they are what they are. - Not too good.

 

[toddsdonald]

Thanks all for the replies. Still wondering about the test results, review and how to explain that if an NAD receiver measures poorly, why does it sound so good. I'm not necessarily an NAD fanboy, but having heard them, including the night and day difference an NAD made in my own listening environment I'm becoming one. There's tons of reviews on NAD receivers and I've never seen a bad one until this forum. Most audiophile reviewers give NAD glowing reviews, plenty of accolades and feel they offer outstanding value even at full retail prices.

I'm not really that into it where I'd do double blind tests and setup test equipment, etc. Actually I don't really need to, hooking up the NAD T 757 V2 was an absolutely astonishing improvement in my own living room. So much in fact that even my wife who doesn't have any ear for sound was like wow!!! She even started playing her Spotify, creating playlists and so on. The NAD not only made movies and TV sound twice as good as the much newer and technology driven Sony receivers, but with music it was probably 10 times better.

Everything sounds so quick and dynamic, yet rich, transparent and not fatiguing at all. Surround Sound effects that were easily distinguishable on the Sony receivers as they moved from speaker to speaker are replaced with a completely enveloping experience that immerses us in the soundtrack, with anything from quiet passages to outdoor scenes or action packed explosions and bullets seeming like they're in the room with us, or we're there on site. Music... Unbelievable. It makes everything sound so dang good, from old 50's or 60's sounding like they were just recorded to new artists and recordings sounding as clean and dynamic as can be. Orchestral music is crazy clear, from hearing the breathing and flipping pages to auditorium shaking kettle drums and everything in-between. Absolutely wild. I honestly never thought a receiver could make that big of a difference and it just makes me want to keep watching or listening. SPL levels that would just make us want to turn down the Sony, make it seem like a stroll in the park for the NAD and we don't even realize it's loud until we notice we can't hear each other talk from 3 feet away.

So I guess I'm just not convinced that measurements mean all that much if NAD measures so bad. But it could be like speakers... Why are speakers measured at 1 watt at 1 meter when that's not at all representative of how one would actually listen to them? I've heard much cheaper speakers blow away expensive ones in an actual listening situation.

 

[toddsdonald]

Just forgot something else... Couldn't figure out how to edit the previous post, but dialogue in movies is amazingly clear. Finally no more "what did they say?".

 

[Sal1950]

Most audiophile reviewers give NAD glowing reviews, plenty of accolades and feel they offer outstanding value even at full retail prices.

We're not most "audiophile" sites. The facts of the measurements are posted without concern for other factors. Subjective reviews are posted for many reasons, some not putting a products real performance as the top priority.

Everything sounds so quick and dynamic, yet rich, transparent and not fatiguing at all.

The mind is easily fooled in a sighted review. Many things may influance what you hear, being bias by all that stuff you've read, heard or been told. Only under tightly controled DBT's can true differences begin to be sorted.

Just forgot something else... Couldn't figure out how to edit the previous post, but dialogue in movies is amazingly clear. Finally no more "what did they say?".

First just click Edit at the bottom of your post.

That big a difference in dialog intelligibility could only be attributed to speakers unless some electronic product is mis-configured or broken.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yeah, there isn't going to be an audible difference in how movie dialogue sounds between AV Receivers unless room correction was used or some other settings are not set up the same between units.

 

[toddsdonald]

We're not most "audiophile" sites. The facts of the measurements are posted without concern for other factors. Subjective reviews are posted for many reasons, some not putting a products real performance as the top priority.

The mind is easily fooled in a sighted review. Many things may influance what you hear, being bias by all that stuff you've read, heard or been told. Only under tightly controled DBT's can true differences begin to be sorted.

First just click Edit at the bottom of your post.

That big a difference in dialog intelligibility could only be attributed to speakers unless some electronic product is mis-configured or broken.

Discovered the "edit" feature for posts, I can now see it in a browser, not on my Android phone which is what I was using originally.

I didn't have any predisposed notions of NAD, actually I have never heard of the brand until I looked at the receiver driving my in-law's home theater after being blown away by the sound quality that I had heard over the course of several movies. It wasn't easy, the audio rack is in a closet without a light, so I had to go into the closet and flip on my cell phone light. Normally I would not be so inquisitive or intrusive but I had never heard any home system like that, so I had to check it out. Incidentally they have a NAD 758 V3 that came with the house when they bought. They have no clue about audio or video products.

As for dialogue clarity I can say from personal experience in my own living room, trying various speakers and receivers, as well as room correction, EQ and so on, that the clarity of dialogue produced by the NAD T 757 V2 is much, much clearer than what I hear coming from a couple of respectable Sony receivers. I think it has to do with power. I have fairly large speakers which is why I wanted to try the NAD in the first place, (I was searching for a decent Harmon Kardon that had HDMI, unfortunately somewhere between the time I purchased my PM660 (still works) and now, they stopped making decent receivers and now I don't think they make any at all.

With all due respect to the forum, the founder, the testing and all that goes into that, I politely disagree that basing "audio reviews" simply on measurements is not much help for an avid electronics consumer looking for performance reviews. Simply measuring them seems ridiculous to me. Aren't audio products meant to be listened to? That would be like Car and Driver simply judging cars based on Horsepower, Torque, Rolling Resistance, etc. Makes zero sense... You would need to drive the car to know what its all about. I think that audio reviews with listening is not fair at all to any of the manufacturers of these components. I've breezed over a few reviews and they are all the same - "oh look how bad this xyz measurement is, I cannot recommend this receiver"... LOL really? That coming from the same person who doesn't hook up an HDMI cable because they "don't have time"? C'mon...

And what sort of audio review site would not test over HDMI? I happened to find a review on a Sony ZA1100ES which is the little brother to my ZA810ES and the review was better for the Sony than the NAD, which is crazy enough, but the tester starts with analogue and SPDIF cable for testing? Its 2021 who's even listening to anything analogue anymore except for a niche' market still into vinyl and who's not using HDMI ARC?

This is a weird review site. I'm sure there's some value to it, but for what I'm not sure.

 

[Sal1950]

That would be like Car and Driver simply judging cars based on Horsepower, Torque, Rolling Resistance, etc.

That depends, if you were looking for a very High Performance car the numbers, if done thoroughly, will present the buyer with all the info he needs. He cares not about the seat comfort or how the knobs on the dash feel.
There was a time people believed the world was flat, it took a long time and education to convince them otherwise. The facts in this review shows the T758 to be a poorly engineered product that failed badly in some of the most basic measurements. Arguments over the audibility of these failings could be argued forever and could only be resolved with a lot of closely bias controlled DBT.
When we get into the area of AVR's which all include some form of digital room correction, the final outcome of the sound ends up in the hands of the installer. It becomes next to impossible to say how any one unit is going to sound under real world conditions.
The bottom line is the numbers don't lie, they show this unit to be the auto equivalent of one that's under powered and has poor brakes and suspension.

This is a weird review site. I'm sure there's some value to it, but for what I'm not sure.

Your takeaway here has two paths.
You can hang out for a while, do some reading and ask some questions to learn about the facts of equipment design. You just might be surprised at what you'll learn.
Or you can leave for greener pastures where the people are certain they hear huge differences in power cords, digital cables and magic dots.
cent' anni

 

[Chromatischism]

Discovered the "edit" feature for posts, I can now see it in a browser, not on my Android phone which is what I was using originally.

Tap the menu:

 

[toddsdonald]

That depends, if you were looking for a very High Performance car the numbers, if done thoroughly, will present the buyer with all the info he needs. He cares not about the seat comfort or how the knobs on the dash feel.
There was a time people believed the world was flat, it took a long time and education to convince them otherwise. The facts in this review shows the T758 to be a poorly engineered product that failed badly in some of the most basic measurements. Arguments over the audibility of these failings could be argued forever and could only be resolved with a lot of closely bias controlled DBT.
When we get into the area of AVR's which all include some form of digital room correction, the final outcome of the sound ends up in the hands of the installer. It becomes next to impossible to say how any one unit is going to sound under real world conditions.
The bottom line is the numbers don't lie, they show this unit to be the auto equivalent of one that's under powered and has poor brakes and suspension.

Your takeaway here has two paths.
You can hang out for a while, do some reading and ask some questions to learn about the facts of equipment design. You just might be surprised at what you'll learn.
Or you can leave for greener pastures where the people are certain they hear huge differences in power cords, digital cables and magic dots.
cent' anni

I've been in the car business for 40 years, and currently work in engineering for an OEM of high performance cars and can guarantee that you can't judge how a car will perform by the specs and engineering. You've got to drive it.

On the AVR's I've used recently (only 3 mentioned Sony DH790, Sony ZA810ES and NAD T 757 V2). I run the auto setup/calibration but have found that it always sounds better with as much of that turned off as possible. Pure Direct on the Sony receivers sounds best, unfortunately it doesn't stay on, you've got to manually select it anytime the program source changes. The rest of the time I just have it set for EQ and sound effects off. With the NAD at least I can setup pre set listening mode with everything set to "none" and tone defeat on. Then it plays back as direct a signal as is possible. The only thing I've found calibrations good for is setting distance and levels. My room is pretty neutral though, speakers pretty good and in the correct locations per Dolby setup, so that may be why room correction doesn't improve the sound but instead makes it worse.

Like I originally mentioned originally, I found the NAD review during a Google search and was surprised at what I read. I can appreciate that the few measurements these reviews are based on are objective, but I've got to wonder if whoever's doing them knows how to use the measuring equipment they're using, or which measurements are audible.

Back to cars, you can read all the horsepower and torque specs you want, but any review site will put it through it's paces on tracks, in real world driving and so on. I think that's what's missing from these reviews it's the practicality of form follows function and actually reviewing how they sound.

Just my 2 cents and opinion.

 

[Sal1950]

Just my 2 cents and opinion.

Believe it or not, much of your basic understanding of your gear and its proper set-up is quite mislead.
Most everything you said here is upside down in one way or another
Also you might want to go back to Amir's first post and at the bottom you'll find this link,
Click for My Technical Background
You might want to do a little homework before accusing people of not knowing what they're doing.
This site is populated by many of the best minds in the audio industry who are interested in advancing the State Of The Art.
There is much to learn if you only drop the fanboy protests and open your mind to learning the science of audio. It's up to you.

 

[toddsdonald]

much of your basic understanding of your gear and its proper set-up is quite mislead.
Most everything you said here is upside down in one way or another

??? How would you assume to know my basic understanding of my gear and it's setup and that it's mislead? Everything is upside down in one way or another? Please explain.

I'm not a fanboy of anything. I've got good experiences with certain gear and not others. Sometimes the same brand that makes great products also makes crappy products. I listen to my gear, isn't that what audio is all about, enjoying it? Sound quality can be heard as well as measured. Having devices that playback audio for the listener's enjoyment is the whole point correct?

I've got no idea of the reviewer's credentials. Maybe he's a genius. The reviews are stupid though. Maybe if he measured them in all aspects not just a few he can find fault with, then test them for what they're intended for, then the reviews would have value.

In the case of the NAD T 758 V3, if he benchmarked it with meaningful measurements and actual performance against other receivers, and then concluded it wasn't a good piece that's different. His review is nothing more than subjective based on a few select objective items he's "measuring".

Does he make his own receivers that out perform Sony, Marantz, Denon, NAD, Yamaha, etc etc? I can't recall ever seeing an "Amir" AV Receiver advertised, in a store, or in person. What if he makes one and it measures spectacularly but sounds like crap?

 

[Chromatischism]

What if he makes one and it measures spectacularly but sounds like crap?

Not possible. It would show in the measurements.

Most people think the 758 V3 sounds really good because they are using Dirac Live. Make sure you aren't conflating the room EQ with the raw technical performance of the electronics.

The bottom line is it doesn't measure well at high levels, but is good enough for most people at normal listening levels, and the sound can be improved dramatically with Dirac. The worse the room or speakers are, the bigger the difference.

 

[Sal1950]

I've got no idea of the reviewer's credentials. Maybe he's a genius. The reviews are stupid though. Maybe if he measured them in all aspects not just a few he can find fault with, then test them for what they're intended for, then the reviews would have value.

You continue to make fanboy like attacks and don't even bother to read the links I provided.
What aspect of measurement do you find missing, be specific?
We hear these claims over and over here, "I own one of these and it sounds great to me".
You don't hear this at most other places cause everything sounds wonderful to them, no matter how badly a product measures at Stereophile by JA he always demures to the subjective review which is never bad.
You have a big opportunity to learn something here, take it or leave it. Continually stating how wrong we are only highlights your lack of knowledge in the science of audio equipment design.
I'm done here.

 

[toddsdonald]

So I read the link you provided to the reviewer's technical expertise. So he's a software programmer and good with fledgling internet technology, PCs and hardware, with some exposure as a kid to his big brother who was an electronics designer back in the 60's or 70's... And he worked for awhile in his youth repairing electronics.

Not sure how that makes him qualified to bash major consumer electronics companies, but if you want to trust your consumer buying decisions because of him go for it.

 

[LTig]

So I read the link you provided to the reviewer's technical expertise. So he's a software programmer and good with fledgling internet technology, PCs and hardware, with some exposure as a kid to his big brother who was an electronics designer back in the 60's or 70's... And he worked for awhile in his youth repairing electronics.

That's kind of incomplete. You forgot his extensive training in subjective testing (double blind) when he worked on lossy compression algorithms. May have taught him something you've not learned yet - being very critical with what our brain says we have heard.

Not sure how that makes him qualified to bash major consumer electronics companies, but if you want to trust your consumer buying decisions because of him go for it.

At least his recommendations are based on reproducable facts and not on unreliable sighted subjective listenings.

Read this posting please before you'll get yourself too deep into trouble. Prepare a level matched blind test with help of a friend comparing two units you swear sound different and keep notes of at least 10 tries. And then please don't blame the test equipment but realize that our hearing sense is fallible. Read other books (like @Floyd Toole's The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms
and realize that on the other hand the human hearings sense is incredibly fantastic when handling echoes and reverb in rooms.

 

[tvrgeek]

A bit of a bummer as the NAD is the only unit with the features I want. Guess I'll keep using my Anthem 310 in 5.1 and let my TV do the HDMI switching for now. I too have had several NAD units and they have always preformed well. But then again, Rotel used to perform above their weight too. From these reviews, I guess we can still trust Denon on the low end.

 

[peng]

A bit of a bummer as the NAD is the only unit with the features I want. Guess I'll keep using my Anthem 310 in 5.1 and let my TV do the HDMI switching for now. I too have had several NAD units and they have always preformed well. But then again, Rotel used to perform above their weight too. From these reviews, I guess we can still trust Denon on the low end.

Did you read Chromatischism's post#892 ?

Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

This should get me laughed right off the forum, but I've heard tons of sound systems (stereo and surround), and have to say I've never heard anything sound as good as an NAD for AV. My ears aren't objective like your tests That's the rub. Your ears haven't any objective standard to compare...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This AVR des not have the best measurements relatively speaking but it can in fact be good enough at lower output level, and Dirac Live might just be able to save the day in some cases.

 

[Dj7675]

Did you read Chromatischism's post#892 ?

Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

This should get me laughed right off the forum, but I've heard tons of sound systems (stereo and surround), and have to say I've never heard anything sound as good as an NAD for AV. My ears aren't objective like your tests That's the rub. Your ears haven't any objective standard to compare...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This AVR des not have the best measurements relatively speaking but it can in fact be good enough at lower output level, and Dirac Live might just be able to save the day in some cases.

I would also add that unless the Dirac receiver has Dirac Live Bass Control, I think Audyssey is better with 2 subs than a non DLBC Dirac receiver. For the receivers without DLBC, I would consider a MiniDSP for subs. Just my opinion of course!

 

[tvrgeek]

Yes. A good listen is the truth. I suspect how well any DSP works may be heavily influenced by how bad the room is. Some love Audyssey, I find ARC genesis pretty good. As Pioneer and Onk seem to be mail order only, can't get a demo. Of course, I have not found a competent Denon dealer to demonstrate XT32 app either.

I have a small room with one sub. Speakers in corners near the ceiling, so a few "issues"

Still contradictory information if Dirac live is full spectrum, or only a crippled version for NAD so they can charge another $100 for it.

 

[Dj7675]

Yes. A good listen is the truth. I suspect how well any DSP works may be heavily influenced by how bad the room is. Some love Audyssey, I find ARC genesis pretty good. As Pioneer and Onk seem to be mail order only, can't get a demo. Of course, I have not found a competent Denon dealer to demonstrate XT32 app either.

I have a small room with one sub. Speakers in corners near the ceiling, so a few "issues"

Still contradictory information if Dirac live is full spectrum, or only a crippled version for NAD so they can charge another $100 for it.

To EQ the full spectrum you have to pay $100. I believe the included version just goes up to 500hz.