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Review and Measurements of NAD M17 V2 Pre/Pro

BDWoody

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You can judge if one machine sounds better than another. This is no rocket science

Indeed it isn't.

Without listening controls, everything will sound different.

It makes more sense once a bit of research into psychoacoustics is done.

Given that this is an audio science site, things like listening controls are not dismissed, but focused on as really the only way to back claims of audible differences.
 

rkwinkel

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Indeed it isn't.

Without listening controls, everything will sound different.

It makes more sense once a bit of research into psychoacoustics is done.

Given that this is an audio science site, things like listening controls are not dismissed, but focused on as really the only way to back claims of audible differences.

I listened to these devices in the same room. So therefore this is a controlled environment. I tested the Evoke and Countour on these machines. I was surprised how big the differences were.
 

BDWoody

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I listened to these devices in the same room. So therefore this is a controlled environment. I tested the Evoke and Countour on these machines. I was surprised how big the differences were.

Controlled means the outputs are level matched by voltmeter to equalize loudness, and you are unable to see or know which is playing at any given time.

Claims of differences without that level of control are either going be ignored, or get the dreaded 'uh huh.'

I'm not saying you didn't hear differences, or that you are lying. I'm saying the hearing process is more complicated than most may realize, and typical 'listening tests', as you see in reviews, are mostly nonsense.
 

rkwinkel

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Controlled means the outputs are level matched by voltmeter to equalize loudness, and you are unable to see or know which is playing at any given time.

Claims of differences without that level of control are either going be ignored, or get the dreaded 'uh huh.'

I'm not saying you didn't hear differences, or that you are lying. I'm saying the hearing process is more complicated than most may realize, and typical 'listening tests', as you see in reviews, are mostly nonsense.

Well that might be the case. But still I do not believe that changes in the settings of the Marantz could have improved the details. I do like to listen to these machines on a volume that is pleasant to my ears. I would like to hear details. Playing loud does not give me these details. Again this is my own experience. So the environment was the same, the song was the same, the speakers were the same and the volume was the same (more or less).
 

peng

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It is all about sound and measurements can not capture this.

Capture what, please be specific? Something that ASR has not measured that would be important to predict whether the specific unit being discussed would sound "better" than say a Denon AVR-X8500H that has lower distortions/noise in most/if not all tests?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just looking for clarity on your points.
 
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rkwinkel

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Capture what, please be specific? Something that ASR has not measured that would be important to predict whether the specific unit being discussed would sound "better" than say a Denon AVR-X8500H that has lower distortions/noise in most/if not all tests?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just looking for clarity on your points.
Correct, a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned. That is also the reason why they need to be modified to get the same quality of sound. Sound is more than only a distortion KPI and the variances are not even material enough to notice this. The overall sound is just not as good as the other brands mentioned above. I would never advice to purchase a product based on these kind of kpi's, but based on sound. So a distortion of 0..0X% is hardly noticable to the human ear. Again they should be taken in to consideration, but never leading. Therefore one can also not conclude that a lower distortion leads to better sound.
 

peng

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Correct, a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned. That is also the reason why they need to be modified to get the same quality of sound. Sound is more than only a distortion KPI and the variances are not even material enough to notice this. The overall sound is just not as good as the other brands mentioned above. I would never advice to purchase a product based on these kind of kpi's, but based on sound. So a distortion of 0..0X% is hardly noticable to the human ear. Again they should be taken in to consideration, but never leading. Therefore one can also not conclude that a lower distortion leads to better sound.

I would buy such argument if only THD is considered, but ASR measures much more. It includes, THD+N, FFT, 32 tones, linearity, IMD, SNR, DR, and more. Based on such a comprehensive battery of test and measurements, if you find "a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned", that is just your opinion and the same or similar opinions may be shared by others. However, there are also others who may have very different or even opposing opinions. Opinions are just that, subjective in nature and are not the same as statements of facts that need to be substantiated with tests and measurements. Again, not disagreeing with you as I respect yours and others opinions.
 

Flak

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I would buy such argument if only THD is considered, but ASR measures much more. It includes, THD+N, FFT, 32 tones, linearity, IMD, SNR, DR, and more. Based on such a comprehensive battery of test and measurements, if you find "a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned", that is just your opinion and the same or similar opinions may be shared by others. However, there are also others who may have very different or even opposing opinions. Opinions are just that, subjective in nature and are not the same as statements of facts that need to be substantiated with tests and measurements. Again, not disagreeing with you as I respect yours and others opinions.

Well... in my opinion, the assumption that a product with certain better measured results sounds better than another should be substantiated by double-blind listening tests, at least this was the requirement for us objectivists in the past :)
It looks like something has changed lately, or not?
 

RichB

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Well... in my opinion, the assumption that a product with certain better measured results sounds better than another should be substantiated by double-blind listening tests, at least this was the requirement for us objectivists in the past :)
It looks like something has changed lately, or not?

That's fine and Dirac should provide after measurements to verify results, similar to display calibration software :p

- Rich
 

Dimifoot

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Well... in my opinion, the assumption that a product with certain better measured results sounds better than another should be substantiated by double-blind listening tests, at least this was the requirement for us objectivists in the past :)
It looks like something has changed lately, or not?
Especially when software comes in play, like sub integration and room correction.
 

rkwinkel

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I would buy such argument if only THD is considered, but ASR measures much more. It includes, THD+N, FFT, 32 tones, linearity, IMD, SNR, DR, and more. Based on such a comprehensive battery of test and measurements, if you find "a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned", that is just your opinion and the same or similar opinions may be shared by others. However, there are also others who may have very different or even opposing opinions. Opinions are just that, subjective in nature and are not the same as statements of facts that need to be substantiated with tests and measurements. Again, not disagreeing with you as I respect yours and others opinions.

And what are the variances between the measurements. These are not material and noticable when one listens to the different brands. Off course when support is needed to choose one over the other than measurements surely help with the choice to purchase. About the software. This is part of the package. There is a reason why brands do and can not offer Dirac, but Audessey (which is not as good as Dirac). If Dirac helps to improve the quality of sound, than I would say the brand delivers what it promises. Why not make use of tools to improve the sound. Just my two cents.
 

peng

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Well... in my opinion, the assumption that a product with certain better measured results sounds better than another should be substantiated by double-blind listening tests, at least this was the requirement for us objectivists in the past :)
It looks like something has changed lately, or not?

I am of the same opinion so no change for me.:) If someone is just stating their opinion based on their subjective view that's different, anyone can say something sounds better than another, with or without stating the conditions. They are entitled to their opinions.
 

Dj7675

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And what are the variances between the measurements. These are not material and noticable when one listens to the different brands.
The variance is quite high. Sinad High-103 (Denon x8500), Sinad Low 53 (Sinad 53). They can be quite noticeable for those needing reference level playback, or using external amps.
There is a reason why brands do and can not offer Dirac, but Audessey (which is not as good as Dirac).
Dirac does a very good job in my opinion. If one believes to only correct below Schroeder (say 300hz), I would say they are equal. Audyssey does very well with multiple subs.
If Dirac helps to improve the quality of sound, than I would say the brand delivers what it promises. Why not make use of tools to improve the sound. Just my two cents.
As I mentioned before Dirac is very good. However the absolute ceiling of performance is limited by the hardware measurements. My opinion is if you are going to spend significant money on a receiver or processor, you should be able to have your cake and eat it too... Well designed and good measuring performance, good stable software, EQ (whether Dirac/Audyssey or ARC) support and warranty. But if something measures poorly, there is no point in considering it as there are other options that do. Measurements/bench tests are just one part of a purchasing decision of course, but we are seeing gear measuring with a Sinad of 60-80 and it seems to me that that should do better.
I listened to these devices in the same room. So therefore this is a controlled environment. I tested the Evoke and Countour on these machines. I was surprised how big the differences were.
Many of the variables were controlled which is true.. but two that were not is precise level matching, and your eyes. Also it would be really important the units compared are in pure direct to make sure no eq at all is applied to either. In a showroom, they could have various settings/eq applied. There is a lot of science behind lack of validity of sighted comparison as well as a slightly louder source being picked as the better one.
 

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Descartes

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Every time one of these AVR tests scrolls past, I'm reminded of how glad I am that I decided to use a UDP-205 as my "AVR", and add on room eq and HDMI switching as separate devices.

Yes but unfortunately the OPPO an only do 7.1, when OPPO released the 205 I had asked them if they would be willing to do a 9.4.6 processor but they said no they were not interested! It turns out that they got out of the entire audio business :(
 

Pinox67

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I would buy such argument if only THD is considered, but ASR measures much more. It includes, THD+N, FFT, 32 tones, linearity, IMD, SNR, DR, and more. Based on such a comprehensive battery of test and measurements, if you find "a Denon or Marantz do not sound better compared to the other brands mentioned", that is just your opinion and the same or similar opinions may be shared by others. However, there are also others who may have very different or even opposing opinions. Opinions are just that, subjective in nature and are not the same as statements of facts that need to be substantiated with tests and measurements. Again, not disagreeing with you as I respect yours and others opinions.

In my experience I have tested dozens of stereo power amps and preamps over the past few years, solid state and tubes based, from $500 to over $15,000 models. I also help some local builders to fine-tune their handmade tube amplifiers.

On these ones I perform both classic measurements (THD, IMD, DR and many others) and listening tests, the latter usually with more people using always the same set of well known audio tracks. The environment is always the same, well treated acoustically, the levels are controlled, even if not with high precision. Listening is not blind for logistical reasons, but it also true that we often start tests without particular expectations of what we are listening to and often I'm not aware about the exact price of the device (it is not mine, or it is handmade).
On the basis of this personal experience, I can say that about sound quality of audio devices:

- While it is true that expensive devices don't always offer excellent sound, it is also true that those with a good sound are generally expensive.
- Devices with excellent sonic qualities certainly have good measurements, but often less good than others with mediocre acoustic characteristics.

On the first aspect I think there is enough agreement from common experience. The second aspect instead is the main source of discrepancy, as there is no agreement on what "good" measures and "good" ear sound mean. This because in between there is the psychoacoustics: how we, as human, ear sounds. This is a very complex subject, not 100% understood at the date.
An interesting (on line) book that can help to better understand the relationship between acoustic measurements and psychoacoustics is "Premium Home Theater - Design & Construction" by Earl Geddes & Lidia Lee, where it is reported verbatim about the distortion of audio components (page 58):
  • There is virtually no correlation between Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) or Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements of a system and the subjective impression of the sound quality of that system. The correlations were weak, but most shockingly they were negative—according to these tests people liked THD distortion. This is actually somewhat true in general that people prefer some forms of distortion to no distortion.
  • Signal based distortion measurements (THD, IMD, MTD), which are based on a purely mathematical formula which does not take into account the characteristics of human hearing, do not hold out much hope for ever being an accurate measure of subjective impression.
  • Measures need to be based on the actual nonlinear characteristic of the system and scaled to account for the human hearing system.
  • THD, IMD, MTD are symptoms of the root problem — the system nonlinearity. These symptoms manifest themselves in different ways depending on the type of nonlinearity present in the system which causes them to be system dependent. This system dependency prevents these symptoms from being valid guides to the audibility of the underlying distortion.
  • Sharp changes in the linearity transfer function, things like hard clipping and crossover distortion, have the most detrimental effect on sound quality. Gradual changes such as soft clipping have a minimal effect.
The above statements, the result of years of work, fit very well with what I have experienced with my modest experience. These ones imply that the measurements that are carried out today are certainly a guide for the design of audio components and then the understanding of many aspects of their behaviour. They are very effective for detecting macroscopic defects (e.g., if it is noisy there is very little to discuss). But the measurements alone, once the "minimum" quality values are achieved, are unfortunately not sufficient to judge how that audio component behaves when listening for parameters such as spaciousness, location, timbre, dynamic contrast etc., the "ingredients" of the listening pleasure that we all seek.
Given my training as an engineer, I would like it not to be so, which means having a metric that reconciles the two worlds. I know of some attempts, but a general agreement as far as I know is not yet there and I fear there will never be.
 
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oupee

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In my experience I have tested dozens of stereo power amps and preamps over the past few years, solid state and tubes based, from $500 to over $15,000 models (and not mine). I also help some local builders to fine-tune their handcrafted tube amplifiers.

I perform both classic measurements (THD, IMD, DR and many others) and listening tests, the latter usually with more people. The environment is always the same, well treated acoustically, the levels are controlled, even if not with high precision. Listening is not blind for logistical reasons, but it also true that we often start tests without particular expectations of what we are listening to.
On the basis of this personal experience, I can say that:

- Expensive devices are not always synonymous of an excellent sound; however, well sounding ones are very often expensive.
- Devices that result in very good measurements do not always turn out to be better for listening than those with less good measurements.

On the first point I think there is enough agreement from common experience.
The second point I think is the main source of discrepancy, as there is no agreement on what "good" measures and "good" ear sound mean. This because in between there is the psychoacoustics: how we, as human, ear sounds.
An interesting (on line) book that can help to better understand the relationship between these is "Premium Home Theater - Design & Construction" by Earl Geddes & Lidia Lee, where it is reported verbatim about the distortion of audio components (page 58):
  • There is virtually no correlation between Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) or Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements of a system and the subjective impression of the sound quality of that system. The correlations were weak, but most shockingly they were negative—according to these tests people liked THD distortion. This is actually somewhat true in general that people prefer some forms of distortion to no distortion.
  • Signal based distortion measurements (THD, IMD, MTD), which are based on a purely mathematical formula which does not take into account the characteristics of human hearing, do not hold out much hope for ever being an accurate measure of subjective impression.
  • Measures need to be based on the actual nonlinear characteristic of the system and scaled to account for the human hearing system.
  • THD, IMD, MTD are symptoms of the root problem — the system nonlinearity. These symptoms manifest themselves in different ways depending on the type of nonlinearity present in the system which causes them to be system dependent. This system dependency prevents these symptoms from being valid guides to the audibility of the underlying distortion.
  • Sharp changes in the linearity transfer function, things like hard clipping and crossover distortion, have the most detrimental effect on sound quality. Gradual changes such as soft clipping have a minimal effect.
The above statements, the result of decades of work, imply that the measurements that are still carried out today are certainly a guide for understanding many aspects of the audio component behaviour and then useful for detecting macroscopic defects (e.g., if it is noisy there is very little to question). But the measurements alone, once "minimum" quality values are achieved, are unfortunatelly not sufficient to judge how that audio component behaves when listening for parameters such as spaciousness, location and timbre (in other words, the listening pleasure that we all seek), on which a definitive point will probably never be placed.
What you wrote should be carved in stone.
Unfortunately, you will not find understanding here. A lot of people don't know the sound difference because they don't have the talents for it, but it's cool to be a hifist, so they rely on the opinions of others who also don't hear the difference but understand measurements and technical terms, which is also considered cool.
The distortions are of different kinds, and the human ear is differently sensitive to each of them. It is the least sensitive to harmonic distortion, but it depends not only on the absolute magnitude of this distortion, but also on the ratio of individual harmonic components. The ear does not seem to be very sensitive to lower harmonic frequencies (2nd and 3rd), as it perceives them as a "natural" signal, which sometimes leads to a paradoxical situation in the listening test, that an amplifier such distorting is rated better than an amplifier with distortion, for example, one to two orders of magnitude lower. Electronic amplifiers, which usually have this type of distortion dominant, are therefore often rated as "musical" and "warm-sounding".
I use googletranslator so I apologize if it is misunderstood.
 

Mulder

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I bought my last power amplifier and DAC on measurments only. I did not even listen to them before I ordered them. These devices is among the most ”transparent” you can buy today, almost. Earlier on I have bought amps and DACs based in listening, trusting my ears. I have had tube amplifiers etc.. Everything was fantastic in the beginning. Now, when I bought my gear based on measurements only, I have never had somerhing I found so pleasant to my ears. At the same time, I think you have a point. This is very contradictory. But our ears do not hear things the way an AP-analyzer meassures things. This hunt for low SINAD is kind of a folly. It sometimes is like an engineers wet dream. Excitement over numbefs and engineering achivements. Sometimes I think we understand the DACs better than we understand our ears.
 

Pinox67

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I bought my last power amplifier and DAC on measurments only. I did not even listen to them before I ordered them. These devices is among the most ”transparent” you can buy today, almost. Earlier on I have bought amps and DACs based in listening, trusting my ears. I have had tube amplifiers etc.. Everything was fantastic in the beginning. Now, when I bought my gear based on measurements only, I have never had somerhing I found so pleasant to my ears. At the same time, I think you have a point. This is very contradictory. But our ears do not hear things the way an AP-analyzer meassures things. This hunt for low SINAD is kind of a folly. It sometimes is like an engineers wet dream. Excitement over numbefs and engineering achivements. Sometimes I think we understand the DACs better than we understand our ears.

In the past I have purchased various products based on measurements, although I have always tried to integrate them also with listening reviews from magazines, specialized websites, forums and friend’s opinions. I don't own the pre/pro subject of this thread, nor have I been able to listen to it. What I can add is that from what I have read it is generally very successful in listening tests. Surely, these reviews do not have the objectivity of a serious measurement like this in the thread, but people should be educated to understand what these numbers say, which are important and which are not. I realize that it is not an easy task, due to the complexity and the number of the elements in the game.

Like you, I think that the rush to low THD (or high SINAD) is not entirely sane, what really matters is the shape of the distortion, a consolidated result by many researches. And, as described in my previous post, having some forms of distortion (on low harmonics respect to higher ones) is even preferable to not having any at all! So, at the end, you have always to trust your ears (in this post some insights). Compare, test components of your friends, go to exhibitions and mostly, attend to live musical events: just so we can grow and understand what sounds and what doesn't.

If you want to have a look at how THD has evolved over time you can also take a look here, there are some point of meditation.
 
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Pinox67

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What you wrote should be carved in stone.
Unfortunately, you will not find understanding here. A lot of people don't know the sound difference because they don't have the talents for it, but it's cool to be a hifist, so they rely on the opinions of others who also don't hear the difference but understand measurements and technical terms, which is also considered cool.
The distortions are of different kinds, and the human ear is differently sensitive to each of them. It is the least sensitive to harmonic distortion, but it depends not only on the absolute magnitude of this distortion, but also on the ratio of individual harmonic components. The ear does not seem to be very sensitive to lower harmonic frequencies (2nd and 3rd), as it perceives them as a "natural" signal, which sometimes leads to a paradoxical situation in the listening test, that an amplifier such distorting is rated better than an amplifier with distortion, for example, one to two orders of magnitude lower. Electronic amplifiers, which usually have this type of distortion dominant, are therefore often rated as "musical" and "warm-sounding".
I use googletranslator so I apologize if it is misunderstood.

If you are interested in further details, you can read my current work on this topic on this thread.
 
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