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Rank studio monitors/active speakers you have heard

badboygolf16v

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if they measure the same, but one costs far more, you'd have to be a moron to buy the more expensive one wouldn't you? That is very, very obvious

No and no.

Off the top off my head I though of a few reasons why you might buy the Neumanns even if they are more expensive.

I can't be bothered to say what they are because I don't like your attitude.
 

thewas

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clearly I don't live in Europe - using a dollar sign was a clear indication of that. Here the KH 120 is $200 more per speaker than the 8030.
Just checked sweetwater which is one of the most known US studio monitor shops and the the difference is actually only $34
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/8030CPM--genelec-8030c-5-inch-powered-studio-monitor
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KH120--neumann-kh-120-5.25-inch-powered-studio-monitor
which is actually even smaller than currently at Europe's biggest studio shop (and even the listed MRSP price difference is less than $100)

$950 for a no frills, 10 year old, 5.25" monitor... which at it's absolute best can't equal the much cheaper Genelec 8030? Honestly hilarious
if they measure the same, but one costs far more, you'd have to be a moron to buy the more expensive one wouldn't you?

Off the top off my head I though of a few reasons why you might buy the Neumanns even if they are more expensive.

I can't be bothered to say what they are because I don't like your attitude.
I agree and don't like or understand such attitude and writing style either.
 

Martijn W

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clearly I don't live in Europe - using a dollar sign was a clear indication of that. Here the KH 120 is $200 more per speaker than the 8030. So your own post lays it out very clearly... if they measure the same, but one costs far more, you'd have to be a moron to buy the more expensive one wouldn't you? That is very, very obvious

I believe making a purchase based on and price and specs alone is unwise. I think the love and hate for genelecs portrays how personal monitoring is. Processing audio includes ones hearing and perception. Ignoring that when selecting monitors can very well withhold you from finding the monitors that work best for you..

I would never purchase 8030 instead of kh 120.
 
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Moonhead

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I would love to listen to 8030 since I prefer there deisgn choice more than KH120, but I have only listen to the Neumann
and Im afraid that the metal dome tweeter in the Genelec will trigger my tinnitus.
- I could easily live with KH120, they are really a great pair of speakers.
 

q3cpma

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clearly I don't live in Europe - using a dollar sign was a clear indication of that. Here the KH 120 is $200 more per speaker than the 8030. So your own post lays it out very clearly... if they measure the same, but one costs far more, you'd have to be a moron to buy the more expensive one wouldn't you? That is very, very obvious
There are reasons to think that the KH120A may have better LF distortion/headroom.
 

q3cpma

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I would love to listen to 8030 since I prefer there deisgn choice more than KH120, but I have only listen to the Neumann
and Im afraid that the metal dome tweeter in the Genelec will trigger my tinnitus.
For the 10000th time, what a tweeter is made of doesn't change anything that can't be seen in measurements. If you can't stand flat HF, you have a useful treble tilt dip switch.

PS: Neumann uses a metal (titanium) dome tweeter too
 

Martijn W

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For the 10000th time, what a tweeter is made of doesn't change anything that can't be seen in measurements.

that would be true if all measures we know and do fully cover what is to be known about sound quality. That would mean we are perfectly able to quantify sound quality at this moment in time. The chance that is true (in any field of science) is very very low. It could very well be that some (still unknown) measure would reflect why genelecs hurt the ears of many peoples when listening to them.. I would not be surprised if genelecs tweeter performs poorly in a still undefined aspect.

i am not saying this is true, but I just want to relativise the statement that everything we currently can measure says everything that is to be known..

If you can't stand flat HF, you have a useful treble tilt dip switch.
Yeah tried that.. does not work for me. I always put the treble down. The result is that the response is not flat anymore. And the. Genelec tweeter remains irritating after a while, even at low volumes.

PS: Neumann uses a metal (titanium) dome tweeter too

I can listen to that tweeter all day long without any problems.

I don’t know what is is with Gebelecs. But what I do know is that I love them the first hour or so and then I start to intensily hate them
 
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Eetu

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The 8030C has wider directivity than the Neumann. That's probably the reason it sounds brighter even though they're both neutral(ish) on-axis.
 

dfuller

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PS: Neumann uses a metal (titanium) dome tweeter too
It's not just titanium, fwiw - it's a composite of titanium and soft fabric, at least to my understanding. The fabric is likely there to damp the resonances of the titanium.
 

Eetu

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They actually sound very different in high frequencies on axis as well..
Unless you live in an anechoic chamber you hear reflected off-axis sound too. Sure, more attenuated (in relation to direct sound) if near-field but still plays a part. Desk bounce, for example.
 

Dialectic

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1. Tie: Beolab 90 in "narrow" mode / Dutch & Dutch 8C
3. Kii Three (haven't heard the BXT modules)
4-x. All others
 
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olivier salad

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For the 10000th time, what a tweeter is made of doesn't change anything that can't be seen in measurements. If you can't stand flat HF, you have a useful treble tilt dip switch.

PS: Neumann uses a metal (titanium) dome tweeter too
Metal domes are prone to ringing and most reviews don't post step response graphs to see that.
 

q3cpma

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Metal domes are prone to ringing and most reviews don't post step response graphs to see that.
1) How is it important if it doesn't show as a resonance in the audible band?
2) Look at the spectrograms on S&R's measurements, there's no hint of ringing from Genelec's tweeters; or any model I've seen reviewed, to be honest.
3) I do remember a study debunking this tweeter material thing posted by @thewas, but can't find it again.

I suspect that those judging CSD from waterfal/spectrograms don't realize how low level these anomalies are. Almost guaranteed to be temporally masked.
 

q3cpma

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that would be true if all measures we know and do fully cover what is to be known about sound quality. That would mean we are perfectly able to quantify sound quality at this moment in time.
There's not a single doubt we can, sound is quite the simple phenomenon, after all. But interpretation is really lacking for some of it like non linear/time distortion; the only things we know are that they're negligible compared to linear distortion (except degenerate cases), and that less is always better.
The chance that is true (in any field of science) is very very low.
This is a quite biaised assumption that all fields of "science" are of equal complexity.
It could very well be that some (still unknown) measure would reflect why genelecs hurt the ears of many peoples when listening to them.. I would not be surprised if genelecs tweeter performs poorly in a still undefined aspect.
n=1.
i am not saying this is true, but I just want to relativise the statement that everything we currently can measure says everything that is to be known..
And I'm saying that only the people who have a sufficient understanding of a field can doubt it in that manner. Otherwise, it's just too easy to rely on common fallacies like "we don't know if we know everything!".

It's not just titanium, fwiw - it's a composite of titanium and soft fabric, at least to my understanding. The fabric is likely there to damp the resonances of the titanium.
Thanks, I somehow knew I missed something.
 

olivier salad

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1) How is it important if it doesn't show as a resonance in the audible band?
2) Look at the spectrograms on S&R's measurements, there's no hint of ringing from Genelec's tweeters; or any model I've seen reviewed, to be honest.
3) I do remember a study debunking this tweeter material thing posted by @thewas, but can't find it again.

I suspect that those judging CSD from waterfal/spectrograms don't realize how low level these anomalies are. Almost guaranteed to be temporally masked.
So you're telling me that this kind of ringing is okay since you can't pinpoint it on a FR graph? (It's not Genelec btw)
 

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Martijn W

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And I'm saying that only the people who have a sufficient understanding of a field can doubt it in that manner. Otherwise, it's just too easy to rely on common fallacies like "we don't know if we know everything!".

Fair point. How would you explain that some speakers (like Genelec) are so challenging to listen to for x hours for some people?
 

Purité Audio

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I suspect it is because their ‘natural’ in room target curve is a little more horizontally flat than some other designs, but I have only measured their 8351B’s here, you can of course change that target to your own preference.
Keith
 
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