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Rank studio monitors/active speakers you have heard

CumSum

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That excactly reflects my experiences with 3rd party sub integration vs. matching sub integration!
That's where you need something like a MiniDSP and a mic to perform sub integration as it is a science. Simply plopping down any sub into your room and judging out of the box performance is no accurate way of assessing the true performance it could have. Even a small difference in timing can turn a sub from a hero into a zero. As someone who does this, I have to say most (sealed) subs end up sounding identical if corrected to the same curve.

Which is why a company like REL exists in the hi-fi space. They make overpriced and under powered small subs that produce very little bass which people take as sounding "fast" and sounding more "seamless" to the speakers. When in reality you are just getting less bass and less extension down low.

These studio subwoofers follow a very similar idea. They also have fancy connections on the back but even that is completely useless if you have something like a MiniDSP, which every speaker+subwoofer system should have to begin with. And any onboard DSP and correction found on the sub is useless as well.

The Neuman KH750 at $1650 for a 10" sub to me is a robbery. A Rythmik F18 is $1750, an 18" sub that will eat it alive in every conceivable way and it won't even be close.

What really doesn't make sense is higher end studio monitors get VERY LOUD. 120+dB is the norm. But then they make these subs that are the complete opposite, where the mid-bass might get up to 105dB but with any real bass down low, you'll be lucky to get mid 90's.

Given a target curve should emphasize the lower frequencies over the midrange and treble, this problem of headroom gets even worse.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate to see people getting swindled by these companies. I really would like to see a massive change in the subwoofer space. You have the few dedicated sub companies that make great valued products, plus the DIY space which produces an even better value, and then you have everyone else who puts out these small underpowered subs and charge 2-5x more for it. And given it is beneficial to have dual or even more subs, this question of value gets to be much much worse.
 

Martijn W

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Have you tried this setup? I hate to ask but when reading your comments I suspect that you didn't..

Anyway, when using the Neumann app you can change some settings. I believe that is wat you are referring to.
If you do this you have to use the network input, which disables all backplate buttons. You can then make use of some standard filter settings to compensate phase issues in the standard analog filters of the KH 120 / 310 (if you have those connected).
I see no problem with that, but bashing seems a lot more easy to you ;)
The app is only available for the ipad btw. I have one, but that I is pretty lame. if you don't have one..

Neumann provides also Neumann MA1 microphone and realignment software. That is how i set-up the system the day before yesterday. I am no expert but what you say in your previous post does not really seem to apply to this solution. The Neumann software a works like a software wizzard in the way that it tells you what to do. and it also asks what monitors are connected (so I suspect they use the same standard phase correction filters for in my case the KH 310). The software also guides you through making 7 test signal recordings on different locations; on the listening spot an d X cm left/right/below/above/front/back of it.

Then the application provides a proposal of settings which can be saved to the subwoofer via its network input. It is also possible to make changes to the provided settings before implementing them (but I didn't).
When using this solution also the network input is enabled, which disables all settings and buttons on the backplate.

No audio scientist is required to set it all up. No 'plug and play' but it is pretty well guided and results are pretty impressive.
I have pretty low confidence that I could get the Rhytmic F18 to integrate better. :D looks like a nice sub though!

Sorry for the rant

Hopefully you got it all of your chest.. :)
 

CumSum

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Neumann provides also Neumann MA1 microphone and realignment software. That is how i set-up the system the day before yesterday. I am no expert but what you say in your previous post does not really seem to apply to this solution. The Neumann software a works like a software wizzard in the way that it tells you what to do. and it also asks what monitors are connected (so I suspect they use the same standard phase correction filters for in my case the KH 310). The software also guides you through making 7 test signal recordings on different locations; on the listening spot an d X cm left/right/below/above/front/back of it.
The responsibility is not on the subwoofer to provide DSP of any kind. To properly integrate speakers and subs to one another, you need a central device that has control over all of them. Hence, something like a MiniDSP SHD which can handle a 2.2 setup, is needed. This allows you to achieve a proper time alignment and improves the correction process as a whole.

My HT subs are passive and they integrate in perfectly with a MiniDSP. So any sub can be integrated, but you need the tools and knowledge which 99.5% of people don't have and don't care to obtain so I am preaching to an audience that doesn't exist A sub with built-in DSP helps the average user get a bit more performance but that is still a fundamentally compromised solution. Which is why I would never recommend buying a sub based on its "features".

So getting back to these studio subs, they offer features that are inherently compromised. For best performance you would actually bypass whatever features the subs come with and again use something like a MiniDSP.

And these studio subs are just stupidly overpriced. I hate to see people waste their money on them. Subs are very much measurable, and these studio subs are going to lack output, lack low frequency extension, and introduce much more distortion because they are so under powered and under sized. I don't have to hear them all to know that they are overpriced. The sound quality should be almost identical between most decent offerings if you integrate them in the manner I do. So now you are looking at how much output and extension can you get for the money.

None of this is directed towards you but to the Pro-Audio industry. Pro-Audio get's a lot of things right, but when it comes to subwoofers, their offerings are beyond disappointing. I really want to see that change.
 

temps

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1. Neumann KH310
2. Genelec 8030 / 8330
3. Dynaudio LYD 5
4. Adam T5V / T7V
5. Dynaudio LYD 7
6. Neumann KH80
7. Hedd Type 20
8. Kef LS50
9. Genelec 8050
10. Adam S2V

Then my "sad junk" category in no particular order: Focal Shape 65, Dynaudio LYD 8, Genelec 8040, Neumann KH120, JBL LSR305, Dynaudio Core 59, Adam A7X, Adam A5X, Yamaha HS7.

8040/8050 sound good but are far, far too expensive for what they are. 8040 in particular is so weak. Tiniest increase in extension, practically no increase in headroom over 8030, and double the price? A joke. Get 8030s and use the dip switch to HPF them and run with a subwoofer. 8040s are just so pointless.

Neumann KH120 also, good monitors but outdated and overpriced. If you are constrained on space, okay I guess, but you might as well save money and just get KH80s with their awesome extra features that for some reason aren't even in the more expensive version of the KH120... If you get KH120 Ds, you have lost your mind and must hate money.

Kef LS50 not traditionally thought of as monitors but are excellent in all applications, including this one. I prefer the LS50W variant although it is kind of a bitch to integrate into a studio setup with monitor control etc. set up for professional monitors.

Adam T series are absolutely excellent for their price. Hugely preferred those over their competitors. They easily outperform the A series for far less money. The AX series was good in its day, 10 years ago. T series gives me hope for whatever comes next from Adam's midrange offering, whenever that may be.

I listened to the Core 59s nearfield which is not their intended application. Lots of headroom, very clean as Dynaudio tends to be but the value didn't seem to be there, to me. Liked the Hedd Type 20 better, but again, not a whole lot of value there. Any 3 way in that format, I compared to the KH310. They all lose. KH310s kick ass and I wish I hadn't compromised on my Monitor Budget with my spouse and just gotten those instead of LYD 7s, which I enjoy (a ton!) but aren't the endgame speaker the way a 310 or 8341 would have been.
 

CumSum

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1. Neumann KH310
2. Genelec 8030 / 8330
3. Dynaudio LYD 5
4. Adam T5V / T7V
5. Dynaudio LYD 7
6. Neumann KH80
7. Hedd Type 20
8. Kef LS50
9. Genelec 8050
10. Adam S2V
Do you prefer the Adam T5V over the S2V in terms of raw performance? Or is value in your equation?
 

badboygolf16v

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The responsibility is not on the subwoofer to provide DSP of any kind. To properly integrate speakers and subs to one another, you need a central device that has control over all of them.

The Neumann KH750 used with MA1 does act as this central device when paired with Neumann analogue monitors
 

CumSum

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The Neumann KH750 used with MA1 does act as this central device when paired with Neumann analogue monitors
I see that now. The options it provides might be the most I've seen from possibly any subwoofer. So it will help integrate in better than most other subs if all you have is a typical audio interface or DAC. It is still unfair to compare a sub like this to one with less features when it comes to raw bass performance. The actual integration of a sub more often than not is more important than the sub itself when it comes to perceived sound quality.

Looking through its manual, it is still no where near the level of a dedicated MiniDSP. The way they perform time alignment with phase switches is a bit weird. It's a lot better than nothing, but why not just offer a configurable time delay?

I'd still rather see Neuman or any of these other companies compete directly against MiniDSP and make external audio boxes that offer up all these features for bass integration. Instead they stick it onto the back of a sub and charge through the roof for it. You end up with a subpar subwoofer and a subpar bass management system. Nailing bass management is not easy. Most AVR's don't even provide good bass management.
 

q3cpma

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Neumann KH120 also, good monitors but outdated and overpriced. If you are constrained on space, okay I guess, but you might as well save money and just get KH80s with their awesome extra features that for some reason aren't even in the more expensive version of the KH120... If you get KH120 Ds, you have lost your mind and must hate money.
You realize the magnitude of the SPL/distortion headroom of the KH120A over the KH80DSP, right? Though I do find their recent price ridiculous: a year ago, the KH120A was priced the same as the 8030C, they're now 200€/pair more expensive, which is ridiculous.
 

dfuller

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You realize the magnitude of the SPL/distortion headroom of the KH120A over the KH80DSP, right?
Seriously. The 120s get SO much louder than the 80s and extend quite a bit lower. Neumann is fairly conservative in their bass extension spec (which is rare, all things considered...), they quote an F3 of 52hz (which is already pretty good for that size of midwoofer!) but 3rd party measurements show an F3 of about 45hz if I'm reading them right, vs the KH80 around 55-57hz F3. That's a pretty substantial difference.
Though I do find their recent price ridiculous: a year ago, the KH120A was priced the same as the 8030C, they're now 200€/pair more expensive, which is ridiculous.
All the Neumanns went up in price quite a bit. The 310s were $4400/pr but are now $4600/pr.
 

hege

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Seriously. The 120s get SO much louder than the 80s and extend quite a bit lower.

120 front ports also fart air like crazy, if you try to actually use the extension. Not for me.
 

Martijn W

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In some placements I heard kh 120 lowend very low and accurate. Very impressive (only max output level was very low).
 

Martijn W

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Well, I would not call any of them bassy. :)

But according to their own published measurements the low extends very comparable..
Both seem to be down about 5dB at 50Hz and 15dB at 40Hz..
 

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mononoaware

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Do you prefer the Adam T5V over the S2V in terms of raw performance? Or is value in your equation?

I think it is obvious from thread title.
 

temps

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Do you prefer the Adam T5V over the S2V in terms of raw performance? Or is value in your equation?
Value is factored in. If it was strictly performance some stuff on my shit list would have ranked higher, 8040 chief among those, but I don't see the point in discussing speakers without their price tags factored in. S2V performance wise is vastly better than the T5V, still better than the T7V.. but a lot of great elements from the design trickled down. Can't say enough nice things about em. I couldn't stand the JBL 305 but loved the Adam Ts to bits.

Seriously. The 120s get SO much louder than the 80s and extend quite a bit lower. Neumann is fairly conservative in their bass extension spec (which is rare, all things considered...), they quote an F3 of 52hz (which is already pretty good for that size of midwoofer!) but 3rd party measurements show an F3 of about 45hz if I'm reading them right, vs the KH80 around 55-57hz F3. That's a pretty substantial difference.
All the Neumanns went up in price quite a bit. The 310s were $4400/pr but are now $4600/pr.
"SO much louder" is still not very loud. The bass headroom is practically non-existent and distorts so readily - the other guy mentions the port chuffing, which is just as bad as it was on my old Adam A5s which I hated. I mark it down huge for not having a HPF rolloff dipswitch like the 8030 has. But with the KH 120 the issue is always the price, in absolute terms. $950 for a no frills, 10 year old, 5.25" monitor... which at it's absolute best can't equal the much cheaper Genelec 8030? Honestly hilarious
 

thewas

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$950 for a no frills, 10 year old, 5.25" monitor... which at it's absolute best can't equal the much cheaper Genelec 8030? Honestly hilarious
That's your personal opinion, almost everyone else finds the KH120 and 8030 at a similar level (the measurements show that too) and both some of the best 5" 2-way monitors.
By the way in Europe their price of both is very similar and also the acoustic design of the 8030a was introduced in 2005 and except the class D amp the other changes of the 8030c are very minor.
 

Martijn W

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Imo KH 120 is a better monitor than 8030C.

Genelecs tweeter abuses my ears. I always like their sound initially but after about 1 hour I cannot stand them anymore. My ears hurt and I want to put them off. Putting the volume down does not help. I owned Genelecs 8020 and 8040 and I know 8341 pretty well. In 8341 the tweeter is crossed at 3khz, which helps a bit but it still fatigues..

Genelecs measure very well but fatigue tells me something is not right. No sound in nature fatigues me like that. I am aware that not all people have this, but i also know that lots of people do.. KH 120 is not fatiguing to anyone as far is I know..
 
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Pearljam5000

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Imo KH 120 is a better monitor than 8030C.

Genelecs tweeter abuses my ears. I always like their sound initially but after about 1 hour I cannot stand them anymore. My ears hurt and I want to put them off. Putting the volume down does not help. I owned Genelecs 8020 and 8040 and I know 8341 pretty well. In 8341 the tweeter is crossed at 3khz, which helps a bit but it still fatigues..

Genelecs measure very well but fatigue tells me something is not right. No sound in nature fatigues me like that. I am aware that not all people have this, but i also know that lots of people do.. KH 120 is not fatiguing to anyone as far is I know..
KH120 is boring and "dark" compared to 8030C
So I feel the exact opposite
 

temps

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That's your personal opinion, almost everyone else finds the KH120 and 8030 at a similar level (the measurements show that too) and both some of the best 5" 2-way monitors.
By the way in Europe their price of both is very similar and also the acoustic design of the 8030a was introduced in 2005 and except the class D amp the other changes of the 8030c are very minor.
clearly I don't live in Europe - using a dollar sign was a clear indication of that. Here the KH 120 is $200 more per speaker than the 8030. So your own post lays it out very clearly... if they measure the same, but one costs far more, you'd have to be a moron to buy the more expensive one wouldn't you? That is very, very obvious
 
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