Question about cables

[AmbivalentBeliever]

I was looking at getting some new cables for IEMs and I came across two questions.
1. What exactly is balanced vs. unbalanced and why does it matter?
2. How does pure copper, silver-plated copper, and copper/SPC hybrid compare to each other? Especially with 8 core cables.

From my understanding, the balanced vs. unbalanced subject matters when running long cables (i.e. pro-level XLRs) to remove noise in the signal and for shorter cables (<3 ft) it does not matter. I guess it won't hurt to get a balanced cable in any case but I don't think it really matters like some people say it does.
Or am I thinking about this wrong and need to incorporate the DAC/Amp and the whole system into account as well?

2. pertains more to the cables I was looking at getting. I don't (really) believe that cables affect sound quality unless its purposefully built to be "unique" (i.e. purposefully made with some special materials to have significant impedance changes or just really poorly built cables). I can barely (or can't even) hear the difference between silicon tips, with foams vs. silicons being more noticable to me. Between copper and silver (plated copper), I don't think I'll be able to hear any difference. The one that concerns me is the copper and silver (plated copper) mix. Won't having a mix of cable strands actually affect the sound in this case because in certain wires (i.e. copper vs. silver) the electrons will experience a different impedance? I'm fairly certain this will be imperceptible and negligible but the thought is still there (particularly as I saw a review for the cable I was looking at that mentions something about how the sound had changed because of this).

 

[amirm]

1. What exactly is balanced vs. unbalanced and why does it matter?

If you have a headphone amplifier, you usually get more power with balanced output than not. It has no fidelity otherwise despite the folklore on the Internet as all headphones are naturally "balanced."

 

[amirm]

From my understanding, the balanced vs. unbalanced subject matters when running long cables (i.e. pro-level XLRs) to remove noise in the signal and for shorter cables (<3 ft) it does not matter. I guess it won't hurt to get a balanced cable in any case but I don't think it really matters like some people say it does.

That is the case with balanced interconnects (e.g. between DAC and amplifier). With respect to headphones, that term is abused and does not have the same meaning technically.

 

[amirm]

Between copper and silver (plated copper), I don't think I'll be able to hear any difference.

There is no audible or even electrical difference between the material. Silver being expensive, is usually provided with thinner gauge which may cause issues when used in speaker cables and such. So I would stay with copper and shop on quality of the build then material choice.

 

[AmbivalentBeliever]

There is no audible or even electrical difference between the material. Silver being expensive, is usually provided with thinner gauge which may cause issues when used in speaker cables and such. So I would stay with copper and shop on quality of the build then material choice.

Well in my scenario the 3 cables I was looking are on sale and were completely identical in build quality and price (~$20) except for the material in it. So really the question came down to choosing between copper, silver-plated copper, and copper/silver(plated copper) mix. I was initially planning on the copper/silver mix because the colors of the cable looks the best.

What do you mean by no electrical difference? Doesn't silver conduct electricity ever so slightly better?

 

[amirm]

What do you mean by no electrical difference? Doesn't silver conduct electricity ever so slightly better?

You are using such a short length of cable that its resistance is immaterial. The connectors will likely have more resistance than the wire!

 

[solderdude]

All cables are linear in response between 0Hz and 100kHz (within 0.1dB). It does not matter if they are made of copper, silver or silver plated copper.
There is no 'mechanism' that turns any of these cables into frequency dependent filters.
Despite many people claiming this. The reason you don't see any presented evidence (which is really easy to obtain) is that measurements will show there is no difference. The difference noticing people thus need to go by their personal feelings and observations (always sighted) to show the effect that isn't there in reality. I AM convinced people do perceive differences so aren't lying. They just attribute it to the wrong reasons.

Also the dreaded 'skin effect' is of no concern in this frequency range as the cable lengths are too short (have too low resistance) to matter.

I once measured differences between the copper and silver cable that came with the AQ Nighthawk but these only differered in level and seems to have been done on purpose to promote their expensive cables (my personal conclusion).
The FR nor any other factors differed.

With regards to balanced vs single ended cables.
There IS a difference that can become audible between normal and balanced cables.
This is true when a single return wire is used.
There is a perfect logical and electrically sound reason for this. Not a myth.

When the single ended cable has only 3 wires in it and the return wire is split in the headphone or in the splitter in the cable then, depending on the cable resistance of the return wire and the impedance of the headphone this effect is present in a certain way. It affects stereowidth. The bigger the problem (cable resistance with respect to the headphone impedance) the wider the stereo width becomes.
Maximum effect is achieved when the returnwire is not present.
The lower the resistance of the return wire the less it is an issue.
The higher the impedance of the headphone the less it is an issue.

When the single ended cable has 4 wires (IEMS usually have) and the 2 return wires are connected in the 3.5mm TRS plug then there is no benefit between that wire and a balanced one except for the obvious one mentioned by Amir which is more available power (may not be true for very low impedance earphones).

In the practical world the cable resistance is usually low enough to become audible in a negative way.

I would choose the pretties looking one with the least microphonics. No need to worry about the used materials.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I once measured differences between the copper and silver cable that came with the AQ Nighthawk but these only differered in level and seems to have been done on purpose to promote their expensive cables (my personal conclusion).
The FR nor any other factors differed.

That was enlightening, thanks

 

[JJB70]

The one reason I can see for getting a balanced headphone cable is if you use a DAP as the SE volume levels of DAPs (and smartphones) can be somewhat anaemic because of regulations governing volume levels. For some reasons while they keep the SE levels down many DAPs have a balanced output which provides a much higher output. At one time it was easy to find software workarounds to unregulated the SE volume level but that seems to have changed so a balanced cable with a balanced output on a DAP is a good way to boost power and get some serious volume. However I really can't say I've ever noticed any difference in sound quality between balanced and SE and as Amir says headphones are inherently balanced anyways.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I was initially planning on the copper/silver mix because the colors of the cable looks the best.

If build is good, looks (aesthetics) are important!

This is about taste and there is no wrong or good.

I would also choose a more flexible, smoother cable over a stiff one.

 

[JJB70]

And don't swallow any of that audiophoolery about having to hook up cables in the right direction.

 

[svart-hvitt]

And don't swallow any of that audiophoolery about having to hook up cables in the right direction.

That is not an advice without exemptions!

 

[SIY]

The term "balanced" is horribly abused here.

"Balanced" means "same source impedance on each leg." In the context of headphones, "floating" or "anti-symmetrical drive" or "push-pull" would be more accurate, if not as marketing-euphonious. And in such a situation, the drive may or may not be actually balanced. Conversely, a balanced drive will not necessarily have equal-but-opposite-polarity signals on each leg.

 

[DonH56]

At $20 each for copper, silver-plated, or copper/plated-Ag hybrid (I assume Cu and plated Cu wires twisted together?) wires, either they are actually tinned (solder-coated) or the silver coating is so thin as to be negligible otherwise I would expect a much bigger cost delta.

The resistivity of Cu is 1.68 x 10^-8 ohm-m; Ag is 1.59 x 10^-18 ohm-m. So 100 cm (about 3.3 feet) of 1-mm (about 18 AWG) copper wire is about 0.021365 ohms and using silver decreases it to 0.0201936 ohms. Using tiny 0.1-mm diameter (about 38 AWG) wire the numbers are 2.136 ohms for copper and 2.019 ohms for silver. Yippie. As Amir said you'll see more change plugging and unplugging the connector a few times.

Power, voltage and current, to headphones is very small.

Impedance at audio frequency for headphone or interconnect runs of any reasonable length (like less than hundreds of feet or more) is immaterial. It is not an RF system; frequencies are orders of magnitude lower. A 3' headphone cable is scarcely going to care.

I use single-ended and differential, with balanced being some form of differential. There are several variations of balanced implementation but beyond the scope of this thread and really irrelevant to this particular application. Push-pull I have seen used in different ways, either as a push-pull output stage that is not really balanced at all, or for a differential stage. Since the term is so misused and vague I tend not to use it.

In short I agree with everybody who came before.

 

[JJB70]

Z can be a bit out in left field at times but I'll admit to finding him entertaining and enjoying his reviews. This one was spot on.

 

[Ron Texas]

True audiophiles spend thousands on cables. What they mainly notice is a higher credit card balance.

 

[solderdude]

What would be fun is Amir measuring the 'Burson cable +' buffer.
There is a bunch of nonsense on their website of 'impedance mismatching'.
I wonder if it merely is a x1 buffer or if some gain is applied.
Plenty of reviews but no measurements.

Z is wrong about the data from USB being verified by the way. It is true for printers but not for audio.

 

[JJB70]

I get the impression Z is wrong about a lot of things. I put his reviews in a similar box as the BBC Top Gear car show, good entertainment but not to be taken seriously if looking for factual information. However, sometimes he does hot a home run and present a very insightful video.

 

[mansr]

Z is wrong about the data from USB being verified by the way. It is true for printers but not for audio.

All USB modes use a CRC for error detection. If an error occurs, bulk mode (printers) requests a resend whereas isochronous (audio) drops the frame and indicates the error to the receiving endpoint.

 

[solderdude]

A bit OT but ....
Indeed, Z made it look like audio samples were checked and resent which is not the case for isochronous (and I thought also not for a-synchronous ?)

How, in general, is an error handled at the receiving end ? a hold of a sample ?, an interpolation between known good sample values or a 'mute' (tick) ?
Or does this depend on the decoder/processing ?