Powered monitors without AD conversion

[AudioStudies]

interesting, for lip sync experience, could you share a bit of the system you were using? say AVR or some DSP applied?[/QUOTE

I use my Roku box a lot, and an excellent (but very dated) processor from Enlightened Audio Design. But at the moment using the EAD for stereo only, including stereo when I watch video. I feed an HDMI signal from the Roku Box to my Sony Smart (Android) TV. I then connect a toslink cable from the TV to the EAD. Regrettably Roku in the latest version of the Ultra does not have a coax digital out, so I can't feed an audio signal directly from Roku to the EAD. The EAD is so old that it doesn't have HDMI. From time to time, I notice speech not exactly matching lip movement, but it is only slightly bothersome.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Whatever. It's still confusing using old terminology let alone advantages to a digital crossover. Good luck with your DAC purity.

“Active” is the correct term to describe a crossover network designed using op-amps. Capacitors, resistors and inductors are passive components, while op-amps are active components.

A crossover network based upon active components is an active crossover.

 

[AudioStudies]

“Active” is the correct term to describe a crossover network designed using op-amps. Capacitors, resistors and inductors are passive components, while op-amps are active components.

A crossover network based upon active components is an active crossover.

Correct, but just for clarification, an active crossover using op-amps may still incorporate some passive devices. Whereas a passive crossover has no op-amps and only passive devices.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Correct, but just for clarification, an active crossover using op-amps may still incorporate some passive devices. Whereas a passive crossover has no op-amps and only passive devices.

Also correct.

 

[YSC]

nice one, just did a bit of research Google, from KEF website about HDMI latency

"Moderate to high-quality AV receivers will have a delay function to help you solve this problem by simply setting the delay to match the audio to the video. However, you should realize different sources may have different delays.



In one test, a commonly used cable set-top box required a delay of 116ms while a 142ms delay was needed for a DirectTV receiver, and a nearly glacial delay of 212ms was needed for a BlueRay player. Unfortunately, many receiver’s internal settings only go to 160ms so I you may have to purchase an additional outboard delay unit to assist the inboard delay available on your receiver."

So it seems that maybe it's the video that's delayed through HDMI, fun experience to try out say if you found you hear the sound before the lips or lagged behind the lips.

I am actually shocked by the HDMI lag myself, if that's the case it has latency in 100ms, then those DSP 5-15ms should feel like nothing?

 

[AudioStudies]

nice one, just did a bit of research Google, from KEF website about HDMI latency

"Moderate to high-quality AV receivers will have a delay function to help you solve this problem by simply setting the delay to match the audio to the video. However, you should realize different sources may have different delays.



In one test, a commonly used cable set-top box required a delay of 116ms while a 142ms delay was needed for a DirectTV receiver, and a nearly glacial delay of 212ms was needed for a BlueRay player. Unfortunately, many receiver’s internal settings only go to 160ms so I you may have to purchase an additional outboard delay unit to assist the inboard delay available on your receiver."

So it seems that maybe it's the video that's delayed through HDMI, fun experience to try out say if you found you hear the sound before the lips or lagged behind the lips.

I am actually shocked by the HDMI lag myself, if that's the case it has latency in 100ms, then those DSP 5-15ms should feel like nothing?

Yeah, HDMI was (and still is) touted as this very great thing, but it certainly introduced some disadvantages. My EAD without HDMI was very advanced for the time, and I probably should check the manual to see if it has an adjustment to correct (or improve) the lip-synch problem, even being manufactured in the old days. I am pretty sure that I am seeing the lips move first with the sound then slightly delayed, and this would make sense, as light travels faster than sound. I am pretty sure the Roku box has delay just like a DirecTV receiver would. I gave up on DirecTV and they are not a company that I would recommend to anyone. I attempted to start a Facebook group called "DirecTV Horror Stories" only to learn there already was one. Didn't surprise me.

 

[YSC]

Yeah, HDMI was (and still is) touted as this very great thing, but it certainly introduced some disadvantages. My EAD without HDMI was very advanced for the time, and I probably should check the manual to see if it has an adjustment to correct (or improve) the lip-synch problem, even being manufactured in the old days. I am pretty sure that I am seeing the lips move first with the sound then slightly delayed, and this would make sense, as light travels faster than sound. I am pretty sure the Roku box has delay just like a DirecTV receiver would. I gave up on DirecTV and they are not a company that I would recommend to anyone. I attempted to start a Facebook group called "DirecTV Horror Stories" only to learn there already was one. Didn't surprise me.

Just re read your description, as you feed the hdmi to tv first, then use the tv toslink to feed into EAD, then the latency should comes from TV internal translating the hdmi input signal to toslink, then the EAD receiver will have another latency converting the toslink to analog signal, which in combination I would imagine having close to 100s of ms latency?

 

[AudioStudies]

Just re read your description, as you feed the hdmi to tv first, then use the tv toslink to feed into EAD, then the latency should comes from TV internal translating the hdmi input signal to toslink, then the EAD receiver will have another latency converting the toslink to analog signal, which in combination I would imagine having close to 100s of ms latency?

And I am not sure that the Roku (feeding the TV via HDMI) doesn't contribute also . . . probably not just the TV and EAD

 

[Ultrasonic]

I am actually shocked by the HDMI lag myself, if that's the case it has latency in 100ms,

The delay above is one caused by video processing I believe, not the HDMI interface.

 

[redshift]

Does anyone know of any powered monitors that do not have AD conversion? I am aware of the Focals and Gibsons, but would like to learn of more, particularly highly rated ones. It seems a bit odd to me to research DACs well, buy a highly rated DAC, and then feed the signal into powered monitors with AD that have internal DACs that may be much worse than a high quality outboard DAC. Does anyone else worry about this, or do I just worry too much? As great a thing as studio monitors are, it is a bit frustrating that it is so difficult for any reviewers to test their internals. Also curious if there are some of you who own Gibsons, like I do, and enjoy the look that was designed to look similar to a guitar.

PSI’s are all analog, powered and calibrated. Pricey though.

https://www.psiaudio.swiss/technology/

 

[redshift]

Simple, it's before the amps but not done via DSP. Instead it's a mix of active (i.e. done using op-amps) and passive filters done at line level.



Yes and no. If you care about latency, DSP is never a good solution because you inevitably add 5+ms of latency between AD-DSP-DA. Otherwise, little concern to speak of.

Another good thing with active crossovers is that they are quite energy efficient compared with passives and DSPs.

However; I’m quite certain a good AD/DA + DSP implementation combo measures better.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Another good thing with active crossovers is that they are quite energy efficient compared with passives and DSPs.

However; I’m quite certain a good AD/DA + DSP implementation combo measures better.

Apologies if I'm being thick, but I'm not 100% clear what you're saying you think measures better than what alternative there? Evidence to back up whatever you are asserting would of course be interesting.

 

[redshift]

Apologies if I'm being thick, but I'm not 100% clear what you're saying you think measures better than what alternative there? Evidence to back up whatever you are asserting would of course be interesting.

It depends on the implementation as usual. I can give you a crusty AD/DA + DSP implementation and a good analogue one and vice versa.

Which one would make you happy?

With a 32bit DSP fed with data from a competent front end and ADC/DAC combo you can do a lot of heavy lifting (signal processing) before truncation becomes an issue.

 

[Ultrasonic]

By 'AD/DA + DSP implementation' are you referring to active speakers with analogue inputs ahead of DSP based active crossovers? Or are you talking about an external DSP solution like my miniDSP SHD feeding an amp and passive speakers? Or something else entirely?

Sorry - really not following what you're trying to say .

 

[redshift]

By 'AD/DA + DSP implementation' are you referring to active speakers with analogue inputs ahead of DSP based active crossovers? Or are you talking about an external DSP solution like my miniDSP SHD feeding an amp and passive speakers? Or something else entirely?

Sorry - really not following what you're trying to say .

What I’m saying is that it is generally a bad idea to:

Bits in your Recording->DAC->Cables->ADC->DSP->DAC->Amplification->Drivers

However, if you know how to engineer, say a 32bit 384kHz capable AFE/ADC (good luck with that!), in your powered/DSP’d speakers, you would recover the, say a 16bit 44.1kHz audio signal virtually perfectly albeit with a delay. But don’t do that.

 

[Weeb Labs]

This is far too theoretical for almost any probable real world application. Unless your configuration of AD/DSP/DA is utterly broken, any quantisation noise is going to be so far below the noise floor of your amplifier(s) as to be utterly irrelevant. If truncation and rounding are producing quantisation noise above -90dB, something is horribly wrong.

 

[deprogrammed]

It's a good thing that you bring up latency. Nowadays, youth are not accustomed to waiting for anything, so 5ms of latency is likely to be a dealbreaker for anyone born after a certain year.

 

[redshift]

View attachment 140949

(In jest):

 

[preload]

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Great job! You showed up today and that’s what matters.

 

[deprogrammed]

Great job! You showed up today and that’s what matters.

Yep, that is what? 80%