Powered monitors without AD conversion

[dfuller]

Haven't looked yet (let alone veracity of a wiki) but how does it make any passive crossover not "active" in that sense? Simply lack of direct amplification post-crossover? That's "active"? Seems another form of passive crossover to me.....

Correct. Passive is always split post-power amp. Active is always pre-power amps. Active by definition requires bi/tri/etc amping which means the amplifier itself behaves as part of the crossover.

They also use op-amps as active filters. If you're curious, this schematic is a Dynaudio BM6A's crossover (publicly available on ElectroTanya, if you want to dissect it), which is a pretty typical analog active crossover. Lots of op-amps making active filters.

 

[preload]

Here's how you can conceptualize the various crossover designs:

analog, passive crossovers
- rely on LCR properties of capacitors, inductors, and resistors
- don't use external power
- example: what's used in conventional (non-active) loudspeakers
analog, active crossovers
- require a power source
- are typically line-level
- example: a simple op-amp based circuit
digital, active crossovers
- require a power source
- require a digital audio input or include an ADC stage
- broad category that can include DSP, an ASIC, or be software-based
- examples: minidsp, behringer dcx2496, roon
A quick browse of Marchland's website reveals products from each of the 3 categories above

 

[AudioStudies]

The response from Genelec regarding my earlier question:

"All 80XX models, including the 8030C, are analog only and do not have any digital conversions or DSP. The 70XX series of subwoofers (7040A, 7050C) are also analog only if you are looking for a subwoofer."

Clearly then, the 8030C studio monitors have an analog active crossover.

 

[YSC]

The response from Genelec regarding my earlier question:

"All 80XX models, including the 8030C, are analog only and do not have any digital conversions or DSP. The 70XX series of subwoofers (7040A, 7050C) are also analog only if you are looking for a subwoofer."

Clearly then, the 8030C studio monitors have an analog active crossover.

Yes, for sure, and this is part of the reason I opt for them ( well, I have to admit I can't afford the better The Ones and that they are as close to perfectly flat as I would imagine I ever want), For full analog vs DSP with latency, it's kind of just some geek paranoid, I am very sure you can't percieve 5-10ms latency even in FPS gaming, human isn't that good at perceiving ms scale of latency, (5/1000 second is practically nothing, considering the typical human reaction time being 250ms). After all audio is finding a way to make you enjoys the music most, no definitive right or wrong.

 

[AudioStudies]

Yes, for sure, and this is part of the reason I opt for them ( well, I have to admit I can't afford the better The Ones and that they are as close to perfectly flat as I would imagine I ever want), For full analog vs DSP with latency, it's kind of just some geek paranoid, I am very sure you can't percieve 5-10ms latency even in FPS gaming, human isn't that good at perceiving ms scale of latency, (5/1000 second is practically nothing, considering the typical human reaction time being 250ms). After all audio is finding a way to make you enjoys the music most, no definitive right or wrong.

I initially was concerned about two steps that I didn't need, an ADC followed by a DAC, although some have suggested I need not worry about such a thing, except for this latency issue. Those steps don't occur in the analog-only 8030C. However, If I choose to use my MiniDSP Studio for DSP (prior to the DAC) in the same system with 8030cs, I guess I will have the latency issue anyway, but apparently not an important issue for just home audio. @dfuller can you please explain why this becomes an issue for home theater? -- which I eventually may grow into . . . I think I will pull the trigger on a pair of 8030Cs . . .

 

[Trell]

I initially was concerned about two steps that I didn't need, an ADC followed by a DAC, although some have suggested I need not worry about such a thing, except for this latency issue. Those steps don't occur in the analog-only 8030C. However, If I choose to use my MiniDSP Studio for DSP (prior to the DAC) in the same system with 8030cs, I guess I will have the latency issue anyway, but apparently not an important issue for just home audio. @dfuller can you please explain why this becomes an issue for home theater? -- which I eventually may grow into . . . I think I will pull the trigger on a pair of 8030Cs . . .

The latency for Genelec DSP seems to be quite low for 8330, about 3ms, according to link below. Since this was in the context of the analog-only 1030A to the DSP 8330A, I guess that the OP used analog input to test. The answer was from Ilkka Rissanen that is a Genelec employee and even a member of this board @Ilkka Rissanen

https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/913147#/

The 8351 has a latency for is approx 5ms, so more than the 8330: https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/view_message/913138#/

 

[AudioStudies]

The latency for Genelec DSP seems to be quite low for 8330, about 3ms, according to link below. Since this was in the context of the analog-only 1030A to the DSP 8330A, I guess that the OP used analog input to test. The answer was from Ilkka Rissanen that is a Genelec employee and even a member of this board @Ilkka Rissanen

https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/913147#/

The 8351 has a latency for is approx 5ms, so more than the 8330: https://community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/view_message/913138#/

Thanks, useful info if I decide to move up the food chain.

 

[YSC]

I initially was concerned about two steps that I didn't need, an ADC followed by a DAC, although some have suggested I need not worry about such a thing, except for this latency issue. Those steps don't occur in the analog-only 8030C. However, If I choose to use my MiniDSP Studio for DSP (prior to the DAC) in the same system with 8030cs, I guess I will have the latency issue anyway, but apparently not an important issue for just home audio. @dfuller can you please explain why this becomes an issue for home theater? -- which I eventually may grow into . . . I think I will pull the trigger on a pair of 8030Cs . . .

whenever DSP is engaged, latency would be introduced, so if want to calibrate anyway I would say using the speakers like the 8051 with GLM inside the monitors should in theory have lowest latency? coz using passive capacitors IMO would induce some sort of latency also anyway. But yea, with minidsp you likely have more freedom for say even EQ your headphone if you would use one.

And personally as a heavy gamer, I never found the latency in ms even for a 10 years old Dell IPS monitor an issue when some gamers die for ultrafast TN panel, I still get quite some ok/good ranks in FPS games in general, same as Wifi latency, in real time gaming the 30-60ms latency won't affect my survival rate in any observable way, I doubt the 5ms or so latency would be noticeable if you're not told they are there

 

[AudioStudies]

whenever DSP is engaged, latency would be introduced, so if want to calibrate anyway I would say using the speakers like the 8051 with GLM inside the monitors should in theory have lowest latency? coz using passive capacitors IMO would induce some sort of latency also anyway. But yea, with minidsp you likely have more freedom for say even EQ your headphone if you would use one.

And personally as a heavy gamer, I never found the latency in ms even for a 10 years old Dell IPS monitor an issue when some gamers die for ultrafast TN panel, I still get quite some ok/good ranks in FPS games in general, same as Wifi latency, in real time gaming the 30-60ms latency won't affect my survival rate in any observable way, I doubt the 5ms or so latency would be noticeable if you're not told they are there

Thanks. I already own other Subs and the MiniDSP Studio, so it would not be practical for me to go the GLM route, too expensive.

 

[Matias]

Having bought an RME ADI-2 DAC and choosing between small studio monitors for my office, I did end up choosing the Neumann KH 80 DSP, so I am doing an ADA conversion consciously. Why? Because the great sound is worth it. 48 dB/octave crossover and linear phase filter is not found with analog crossovers in this category. I would have preferred aluminum chassis, the only con of the KH 80 DSP, but it is rather for piece of mind than actually hearing resonances on the chassis.

 

[preload]

And personally as a heavy gamer, I never found the latency in ms even for a 10 years old Dell IPS monitor an issue when some gamers die for ultrafast TN panel, I still get quite some ok/good ranks in FPS games in general, same as Wifi latency, in real time gaming the 30-60ms latency won't affect my survival rate in any observable way, I doubt the 5ms or so latency would be noticeable if you're not told they are there

Campers don't need TN panels.

 

[YSC]

Campers don't need TN panels.

I am those runner and shoot around then die type but IPS with 33ms input lag and 6ms GTG latency don't make me die more than TN, not even very noticeable when I look for lag... I believe the audio latency is even less of a concern

 

[Ultrasonic]

I guess I will have the latency issue anyway, but apparently not an important issue for just home audio. @dfuller can you please explain why this becomes an issue for home theater?

You didn't ask me but the answer is you can get noticeable lip-sync issues, which obviously isn't a consideration for audio-only. People have varying sensitivity to this issue though.

 

[Grotti]

I don't know if it was mentioned before: PSI loudspeakers are active and strictly analog....

 

[YSC]

I don't know if it was mentioned before: PSI loudspeakers are active and strictly analog....

But the align the phase, which in turn induce dsp like latency

 

[andymok]

I don't know if it was mentioned before: PSI loudspeakers are active and strictly analog....

Yes PSI, and Sonodyne SRP 350 / 400

 

[Jim Matthews]

I've checked them out before, they're passive, not active.

Marchand sells both.

By definition:

An input signal that is divided by frequency using a powered signal chain is active. An input signal that is divided by frequency using unpowered components such as inductors and capacitors is passive.

Typically an active crossover filters lower "line level" signals, before amplification with signals no greater than 3.5 VDC (peak to peak).

The advantage of powered topologies is the ability to maintain time and phase alignment with (relatively) less expensive circuitry that maybe more readily changed by the user. Theoretically there should be less loss of data at the native output level of the source.

Marchand makes both.

https://www.marchandelec.com/electronic-crossovers.html

 

[AudioStudies]

I think $6.40 is probably the cost of an ADC that IS transparent.

I agree. But I don't know that every manufacturer can be trusted to spend $6.40 . . . or another small amount for the DAC to get back to analog. Its a bit stunning to me how many crappy products Amir has uncovered; although many excellent ones also . . .

 

[AudioStudies]

You didn't ask me but the answer is you can get noticeable lip-sync issues, which obviously isn't a consideration for audio-only. People have varying sensitivity to this issue though.

Yeah, I suspected the answer would be something like this. Thanks. I notice the lip-sync issues even without using DSP in my video systems. Purchased a MiniDSP SHD Studio recently, and will add DSP soon to one of the systems.

 

[YSC]

Yeah, I suspected the answer would be something like this. Thanks. I notice the lip-sync issues even without using DSP in my video systems. Purchased a MiniDSP SHD Studio recently, and will add DSP soon to one of the systems.

interesting, for lip sync experience, could you share a bit of the system you were using? say AVR or some DSP applied?