Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[HappyCamper]

Hello everyone. I read this review and I find the power test results very interesting, regarding the "throttling" issue. If I understand correctly, The Onkyo TX-RZ50 is the Onkyo equivalent to this Pioneer AVR. I owned the TX-NR7100, which I think is the equivalent to the Pioneer VSX-LX 305, the little brother to this unit.

I purchased my TX-NR7100 a little over 9 months ago. Since then, I did notice what I thought was a "volume reduction" or reduction in bass power when listening in Direct mode (stereo, 2 channels driven) at very loud volumes. It would happen about 15 seconds in with certain songs that have a hard bass punch. The best way I can describe it is that the sound all of a sudden went muffled, and the quality of the bass changed from being crisp and powerful, to soft and weak. This was happening with my JBL L890 speakers which I understand may have an impedance drop in the bass region. I changed to my old L100 Centuries (nominal 8 ohm impedance) to test again, and the same thing was still happening. That issue is what led me to this forum, as I was googling and trying to find out why this may be happening. I'm now wondering if what I experienced in the real world was the result of this type of power throttling.

To be fair, I did not ever notice this power reduction when running 9 channels in surround mode watching movies, but this was with the speakers all crossed over at a minimum of 80 hz, none of them running full range.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Hello everyone. I read this review and I find the power test results very interesting, regarding the "throttling" issue. If I understand correctly, The Onkyo TX-RZ50 is the Onkyo equivalent to this Pioneer AVR. I owned the TX-NR7100, which I think is the equivalent to the Pioneer VSX-LX 305, the little brother to this unit.

I purchased my TX-NR7100 a little over 9 months ago. Since then, I did notice what I thought was a "volume reduction" or reduction in bass power when listening in Direct mode (stereo, 2 channels driven) at very loud volumes. It would happen about 15 seconds in with certain songs that have a hard bass punch. The best way I can describe it is that the sound all of a sudden went muffled, and the quality of the bass changed from being crisp and powerful, to soft and weak. This was happening with my JBL L890 speakers which I understand may have an impedance drop in the bass region. I changed to my old L100 Centuries (nominal 8 ohm impedance) to test again, and the same thing was still happening. That issue is what led me to this forum, as I was googling and trying to find out why this may be happening. I'm now wondering if what I experienced in the real world was the result of this type of power throttling.

To be fair, I did not ever notice this power reduction when running 9 channels in surround mode watching movies, but this was with the speakers all crossed over at a minimum of 80 hz, none of them running full range.

I experienced it as very audible clipping with loud music at a fairly consistent SPL, but I didn’t try to run the speakers full range. I supposed it could also lead to bass reduction, but it’s much harder to hear with external powered subs crossed over. I never heard a problem with “reference level” movie soundtracks, as you also observed.

I just returned the unit and got a much cheaper Yamaha. The Yamaha even has stereo pre outs and per channel group crossover points, as one would expect from a receiver costing hundreds of dollars. (I think I implied earlier that I had an LX505 but it was actually a 305.)

The funniest thing is the Pioneer has a heat warning sticker on top of the unit, but its nanny circuitry won’t even allow the receiver to get warm.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

There is a time component to hearing loss as decibels increase. At 110-115db, 35-45 seconds is enough to cause hearing loss. A 120w amp can absolutely reach 110-115db at max volume with 90-95db sensitivity speakers.

Whether from governmental regulations or from fear of lawsuits, a 35 second trigger makes complete sense. Requiring a power cycle would also lower potential liability claims as that would force a consumer to knowingly admit they were purposefully listening to dangerous sound levels. As a comparison, my car has a 300hp motor. It can easily do 150mp, but is governor limited to 118 mph because that is the speed rating of the tires it came equipped with.

It would be interesting if you limited your test to the equivalent of 107 db output to see if that triggers the nanny control and if it triggers it at 70-90 seconds as would be predicted by hearing loss models.

 

[Theriverlethe]

There is a time component to hearing loss as decibels increase. At 110-115db, 35-45 seconds is enough to cause hearing loss. A 120w amp can absolutely reach 110-115db at max volume with 90-95db sensitivity speakers.

Whether from governmental regulations or from fear of lawsuits, a 35 second trigger makes complete sense. Requiring a power cycle would also lower potential liability claims as that would force a consumer to knowingly admit they were purposefully listening to dangerous sound levels. As a comparison, my car has a 300hp motor. It can easily do 150mp, but is governor limited to 118 mph because that is the speed rating of the tires it came equipped with.

It would be interesting if you limited your test to the equivalent of 107 db output to see if that triggers the nanny control and if it triggers it at 70-90 seconds as would be predicted by hearing loss models.

That wouldn't really be a feasible regulation since it depends on speaker sensitivity, speaker placement and listening distance. I suppose it's possible they're trying to limit frivolous lawsuits, but apparently they don't care about FCC regulations or the potential for a class action. I'd be more interested to see if the unit actually meets its FCC power rating of 120 watts for five minutes, since Amir tested it above that limit.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

That wouldn't really be a feasible regulation since it depends on speaker sensitivity, speaker placement and listening distance. I suppose it's possible they're trying to limit frivolous lawsuits, but apparently they don't care about FCC regulations or the potential for a class action. I'd be more interested to see if the unit actually meets its FCC power rating of 120 watts for five minutes, since Amir tested it above that limit.

Didn't they do something similar with the Walkmans back in the day?

The VSX-LX505 has an 850w power supply. It certainly has the available power to do 120w. Even under VOXX, I cannot see Onkyo or Pioneer putting in the expense of a 850w power supply (the LX305 has a 750w ps) and then fudging their ratings.

I do not fully understand most of these tests, but it only seems logical to incrementally test lower than+2 to see if the nanny circuit still gets triggered.

 

[AmeriAVR]

In my setup, I run my LX505 at -24db, which I find suitable for watching movies with no issues. I find that higher wattage units that run at lower volume levels, sound very clean. This unit runs just fine. Running at +2 would be too loud for me. After running the Dirac calibration, the 7.1 surround sounds extraordinary. I‘m very pleased with it so far.

I would also like to see a gradual increase of the volume to see where the circuit protection kicks in.

 

[Theriverlethe]

In my setup, I run my LX505 at -24db, which I find suitable for watching movies with no issues. I find that higher wattage units that run at lower volume levels, sound very clean. This unit runs just fine. Running at +2 would be too loud for me. After running the Dirac calibration, the 7.1 surround sounds extraordinary. I‘m very pleased with it so far.

I would also like to see a gradual increase of the volume to see where the circuit protection kicks in.

You must have very sensitive transducers. I'd agree that +2 is "very loud" but the unit may exhibit aggressive nanny circuit behavior well below that threshold.

 

[AmeriAVR]

Must be my room size(12.5x13). I get to -9 db and it’s too much for my ears. The concussion from the bass is intense. I may try with earplugs and no one at home to see how it does at higher volumes. My Klipsch speakers can handle 150 watts so I’m not worried about blowing the speakers.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Must be my room size(12.5x13). I get to -9 db and it’s too much for my ears. The concussion from the bass is intense. I may try with earplugs and no one at home to see how it does at higher volumes. My Klipsch speakers can handle 150 watts so I’m not worried about blowing the speakers.

Klipsch is pretty sensitive, though I think they rate sensitivity at the highly elevated tweeter response.

 

[MbphotoX]

Ordered the LX505 for 750 bucks brand new (Switzerland) and am curious to test it soon. (Gotta make sure the baby is out of the house, though)

It's a pity that the amplifier was not tested in a realistic setting.

+2 dB setting?
20% above rated max output power for prolonged time?

That doesn't prove anything at all, really. It was stressed beyond what it's rated for and driven into a sort of "protective mode"..
And the conclusion is ridiculous: "cannot recommend, because it cannot handle far above what it was rated for in an unrealistic setting."


I'm bad at the math, so I used this tool:

SPL Calculator

120W of power with 86dB sensitivity at 3m listening distance outputs 97dB SPL (100dB close to a wall as it usually is)
That's insanely loud and already close to the level you could ever hope to reach as an absolute maximum peak at reference level (0 dB setting, 105dB peak!)
(But this happens incredibly rarely and only in a tiny handful of movies where the maximum range of dynamics is actually used... and never for anything more than a short burst!)

So, what's realistic?
I usually watch movies at -20dB when I'm alone. -30dB with my family.
When I was younger, I would go to -10 dB to get the house shaking ( 2 x SVS PC12-plus subwoofers in a 4x4m room, sad to see them go when I "grew up", though) during "the incredible Hulk" or similar.

But never in my life would I dare go to 0 dB... Especially not since they actually found that loud noises are perceived as even louder in "small" rooms. The academy actually recommends -6dB for "reference level experience"...

Anyways, let's assume the crazy guy stills drives a -10dB
at 89dB sensitivity with my speakers: (and 3.2m distance like I have)
I would only need 20 W of power to reach 95dB peak SPL... (probably even less, because the speakers are within 2ft of the corner.. small European living rooms..)

That sounds about right and realistic. (Since I have a potent Yamaha Stereo Amp with VU meters, an UMIK-1 and a digital SPL meter from Voltcraft to play around with)



If the amp turns out to struggle with my B&Ws (my Pioneer SC-LX57 never had an issue), I can always just feed the signal to my Yamaha Stereo Amp (it can work as a power amp), but I'm really not worried, here.
There has to be a reason why they put that gigantic power supply in there.



If you want reference level in a dedicated home cinema, get dedicated home theatre speakers:

CINEMA ULTRA LCR 100-THX

THX Ultra2-zertifizierter Front- und Centerlautsprecher

magnat-suisse.ch

93dB sensitivity, rated to output above 110dB SPL..

 

[Theriverlethe]

Ordered the LX505 for 750 bucks brand new (Switzerland) and am curious to test it soon. (Gotta make sure the baby is out of the house, though)

It's a pity that the amplifier was not tested in a realistic setting.

+2 dB setting?
20% above rated max output power for prolonged time?


I'm bad at the math, so I used this tool:

SPL Calculator

120W of power with 86dB sensitivity at 3m listening distance outputs 97dB SPL (100dB close to a wall as it usually is)
That's insanely loud and already close to the level you could ever hope to reach as an absolute maximum peak at reference level (0 dB setting, 105dB peak!)
(But this happens incredibly rarely and only in a tiny handful of movies where the maximum range of dynamics is actually used... and never for anything more than a short burst!)

So, what's realistic?
I usually watch movies at -20dB when I'm alone. -30dB with my family.
When I was younger, I would go to -10 dB to get the house shaking ( 2 x SVS PC12-plus subwoofers in a 4x4m room, sad to see them go when I "grew up", though) during "the incredible Hulk" or similar.

But never in my life would I dare go to 0 dB... Especially not since they actually found that loud noises are perceived as even louder in "small" rooms. The academy actually recommends -6dB for "reference level experience"...

Anyways, let's assume the crazy guy stills drives a -10dB
at 89dB sensitivity with my speakers: (and 3.2m distance like I have)
I would only need 20 W of power to reach 95dB peak SPL... (probably even less, because the speakers are within 2ft of the corner.. small European living rooms..)

That sounds about right and realistic. (Since I have a potent Yamaha Stereo Amp with VU meters, an UMIK-1 and a digital SPL meter from Voltcraft to play around with)



If the amp turns out to struggle with my B&Ws (my Pioneer SC-LX57 never had an issue), I can always just feed the signal to my Yamaha Stereo Amp (it can work as a power amp), but I'm really not worried, here.
There has to be a reason why they put that gigantic power supply in there.

I wouldn’t say 97dB SPL is “insanely loud,” unless you’re listening to Klipsch speakers. Definitely not something to do over a long period of time or on a regular basis, but certainly not rock concert level.

You also have to factor in gain for room correction/EQ. My SVS Prime Towers rated for 87dB sensitivity are more like 81 - 83dB sensitivity once they’re equalized.

The bigger issue for me is that the manufacturer is advertising 120 watts per FCC spec, so they’re actually breaking the law if the product doesn’t deliver.

 

[MbphotoX]

I wouldn’t say 97dB SPL is “insanely loud,” unless you’re listening to Klipsch speakers. Definitely not something to do over a long period of time or on a regular basis, but certainly not rock concert level.

You also have to factor in gain for room correction/EQ. My SVS Prime Towers rated for 87dB sensitivity are more like 81 - 83dB sensitivity once they’re equalized.

The bigger issue for me is that the manufacturer is advertising 120 watts per FCC spec, so they’re actually breaking the law if the product doesn’t deliver.

my problem is that this review concludes that the rated output isn't met..
but this review never tested the rated output.

The review tested for maximum possible output, and nothing else.
If the system throttles after being forced to deliver 20+% more than its rated power, that does not prove at all that the rated power was not maintained.


And 97dB is definitely insanely loud.. When I really "rock my house" with music, I maybe reach 85dB peaks.. maybe 90 if I go truly wild?!
A rock concert (100-110dB) is never attended without hearing protection.. and that usually pulls the volume down a good 10-30 dB...

 

[Theriverlethe]

my problem is that this review concludes that the rated output isn't met..
but this review never tested the rated output.

The review tested for maximum possible output, and nothing else.
If the system throttles after being forced to deliver 20+% more than its rated power, that does not prove at all that the rated power was not maintained.


And 97dB is definitely insanely loud.. When I really "rock my house" with music, I maybe reach 85dB peaks.. maybe 90 if I go truly wild?!
A rock concert (100-110dB) is never attended without hearing protection.. and that usually pulls the volume down a good 10-30 dB...

I agree that the manufacturer’s claims would be a reasonable place to start testing. Amir’s 2V rule doesn’t make a lot of sense when many amplifiers will reach full output at 1.5 or 1.4V.

We’ll have to agree to completely disagree about 100dB SPL being “insanely loud.”

 

[MbphotoX]

Yeah, I wish Amir had bothered to test this device properly..
Tons of people come here for "scientific reviews" because they are fed up with the bought advertisers/reviewers that review based on feelings and expectation bias..

But the way these AV-Receivers are tested is simply not beneficial to anyone... Scientific measurements? sure. But why outside the rated spec?!


You shouldn't go tell people that 100dB SPL is fine, though!
your hearing may have deteriorated more than mine, despite you being only 5 years my senior, I guess.
I can still hear up to 15kHz and usually get a perfect score in listening tests (by hearing aid manufacturers) and listening comprehension exams, for that matter.

If you enjoyed many years of attending concerts and visiting clubs, it's perfectly reasonable for you to not find the sound of a fricking Sledgehammer to not be insane..

"You’re at risk of hearing damage after just 15 minutes when you’re in an average nightclub, which plays music at 100dB, if you don’t use earplugs to protect your ears. For sounds of 110–120dB, even a very short exposure time can cause hearing damage."

How loud is too loud?

It can be hard to tell how loud sounds are. Here’s our guide to understanding how loud is too loud, so you know when to protect your hearing.

rnid.org.uk

sounds like "insanely loud" to me, if it causes hearing damage after only 4 songs...

 

[ban25]

I wouldn’t say 97dB SPL is “insanely loud,” unless you’re listening to Klipsch speakers. Definitely not something to do over a long period of time or on a regular basis, but certainly not rock concert level.

You also have to factor in gain for room correction/EQ. My SVS Prime Towers rated for 87dB sensitivity are more like 81 - 83dB sensitivity once they’re equalized.

The bigger issue for me is that the manufacturer is advertising 120 watts per FCC spec, so they’re actually breaking the law if the product doesn’t deliver.

An amusing aside...I used to race at Laguna Seca and they routinely have a sound limit of 90 dB, as measured by the sound booth at Turn 5. They have, IIRC, only 5 unlimited sound days per year. I've been kicked off the track twice for sound, once for hitting 94 dB and once for 103 dB. Drivers there know to lift the pedal between T5 and T6 and it has also lead to the creation of the Laguna Exhaust (https://www.trackspecauto.com/laguna-pipes), which blows the sound on the inside of the track, away from the booth.

All of this to say, if you were listening to a movie at 97 dB in one of the McMansions around Laguna, you'd have some unhappy neighbors!

 

[Theriverlethe]

An amusing aside...I used to race at Laguna Seca and they routinely have a sound limit of 90 dB, as measured by the sound booth at Turn 5. They have, IIRC, only 5 unlimited sound days per year. I've been kicked off the track twice for sound, once for hitting 94 dB and once for 103 dB. Drivers there know to lift the pedal between T5 and T6 and it has also lead to the creation of the Laguna Exhaust (https://www.trackspecauto.com/laguna-pipes), which blows the sound on the inside of the track, away from the booth.

All of this to say, if you were listening to a movie at 97 dB in one of the McMansions around Laguna, you'd have some unhappy neighbors!

This is why I got an early 20th century house with 18" walls.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

This is why I got an early 20th century house with 18" walls.

And real plaster.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Yeah, I wish Amir had bothered to test this device properly..
Tons of people come here for "scientific reviews" because they are fed up with the bought advertisers/reviewers that review based on feelings and expectation bias..

But the way these AV-Receivers are tested is simply not beneficial to anyone... Scientific measurements? sure. But why outside the rated spec?!


You shouldn't go tell people that 100dB SPL is fine, though!
your hearing may have deteriorated more than mine, despite you being only 5 years my senior, I guess.
I can still hear up to 15kHz and usually get a perfect score in listening tests (by hearing aid manufacturers) and listening comprehension exams, for that matter.

If you enjoyed many years of attending concerts and visiting clubs, it's perfectly reasonable for you to not find the sound of a fricking Sledgehammer to not be insane..
View attachment 338873

"You’re at risk of hearing damage after just 15 minutes when you’re in an average nightclub, which plays music at 100dB, if you don’t use earplugs to protect your ears. For sounds of 110–120dB, even a very short exposure time can cause hearing damage."

How loud is too loud?

It can be hard to tell how loud sounds are. Here’s our guide to understanding how loud is too loud, so you know when to protect your hearing.

rnid.org.uk

sounds like "insanely loud" to me, if it causes hearing damage after only 4 songs...

I never said it's "fine." I find 100dB SPL "uncomfortably loud" and obviously within the range of hearing damage from prolonged exposure. It's pretty easy for a human voice or un-amplified acoustic instruments to reach 100dB, so I don't think many people would characterize it as "insanely loud." That just comes across as histrionic. 80-90dBA is a comfortable listening level for me, with relatively low risk assuming less than eight hours of exposure per day.

 

[antcollinet]

obviously within the range of hearing damage from prolonged exposure

Where "prolonged" can be as little as 15 minutes:

What Noises Cause Hearing Loss? | NCEH | CDC

Noise is a significant source of hearing loss, but you can protect your hearing. An important first step is to understand how noise causes hearing loss.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Theriverlethe]

Where "prolonged" can be as little as 15 minutes:

What Noises Cause Hearing Loss? | NCEH | CDC

Noise is a significant source of hearing loss, but you can protect your hearing. An important first step is to understand how noise causes hearing loss.

www.cdc.gov

I’ve never seen the 70dB figure before. This would mean many people are causing hearing damage with moderately loud conversation.