Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[amirm]

@amirm You say: f you don't use the Pure mode -- which is probably how most of you use it -- you will lose performance:

Well most will not use the Pure mode. Most - me included Onkyo RZ820 - will never use pure mode

That is what my sentence meant.

 

[dlaloum]

What is HEAPS?

The later models had XT32, beginning with the 3008, which I have. I haven't found a difference soundwise with / without except of course for less boomy bass.

Did the 876 really have an biamp / XO option? You could do that for the sub out but that was a preout only.

The biamp / XO option was advertised as the breakthrough novelty with the much later models (818, 929, 1010, 3010, 5010). Out of these, only the 1010 - 5010 have the good power amps. I don't remember this being implemented any of the earlier models.

Measured by Paul Miller:

Denon AVR-3803A

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SPDIF: 560psec

HDMI: 3700psec


Onkyo TX-NR906

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SPDIF: 470psec

HDMI: 3860psec


Pioneer SC-LX81

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SPDIF: 37psec

HDMI: 50psec


Yamaha RX-V3900

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SPDIF: 183psec

HDMI: 7660psec

The 876 had the same processor circuit boards as the 906.

 

[Dj7675]

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Power Amplifier Testing
This testing cost me anther hour of sleep (went to bed near 4:00 am!). I started with measuring 4 ohm power as I usually do and got ridiculously low level of output before clipping. I checked all the settings, set the amp to 6 vs 4 ohm and back, power save mode off, etc. but nothing would fix it. On a hunch, I disconnected the power cable, waited a bit and powered the unit back on. I got full power twice but then it limited:

@amirm
Question about this... So if an owner had speakers that are 4ohm for example on the mains and was listening at a loud level, could the receiver flip to protected mode (limiting it to 40w) and stay that way until the unit was unplugged and reset? Basically wondering if a unit could get into its protected mode without the owner knowing it?

 

[GalZohar]

The sampling as said is probably a non-issue when comparing to the alternative AVRs at the price range (aka x3700h which does the same thing).

The SNR is a bummer (not fun to buy something with worse specs) but not sure how audible? And maybe worth it for getting Dirac?

My main worry here is the amplifier limiting issue. Need to know if it's a real issue that can happen a real use, or if the benchmark here hit something that will never actually happen.

Basically I want to upgrade my x2700h mostly due to the limitations of Audyssey XT (should've just got a x3700h to begin with), and was wondering if waiting for this would be a better idea than waiting for local stock of x3700h or maybe some 2nd hand deal. Also hadn't really found any proper head to head comparisons of the relevant EQ systems (XT32, ARC and now with this receiver also Dirac without DLBC). Arc is pricy but I might be able to get a 2nd hand locally at some point.

 

[amirm]

@amirm
Question about this... So if an owner had speakers that are 4ohm for example on the mains and was listening at a loud level, could the receiver flip to protected mode (limiting it to 40w) and stay that way until the unit was unplugged and reset? Basically wondering if a unit could get into its protected mode without the owner knowing it?

Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.

 

[TallDan]

Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.

Did you notice any relay clicks during this, or any of your testing? I’ve had some seemingly random relay clicks from mine.

 

[Dj7675]

Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.

Now I get it why this was a deal breaker for you and an huge flaw. A follow up, witha couple of speaker examples....
Speaker manufacturers seem to routinely state their speaker is 8ohm nominal. But in your measurements you will show something different. Take for example the Revel M16 or F208. You show a minimum of 4ohm for the M16 and 3.2 ohm for the F208. Revel lists the M16 at 6ohm nominal and the f208 at 8ohm nominal. Even though the manufacture does not specify either of these speakers as 4ohm, could they trigger this receiver to go into its power limiting mode (and stay there)?
From the review it wasn't clear to me that the power limiting could be an issue for consumers and not just on your test bench. Hopefully this can be dealt with by the manufacturer. This unit ticks a lot of boxes for the average home theater user and it is a shame it could get stuck in power limiting mode without consumers ever knowing it.

 

[tpeter]

dang thats crazy, i returned my 3700 when i got the RZ50 because to me it sounded night and day difference.. Although i am using a monolith 7 chan amp

 

[levimax]

Now I get it why this was a deal breaker for you and an huge flaw. A follow up, witha couple of speaker examples....
Speaker manufacturers seem to routinely state their speaker is 8ohm nominal. But in your measurements you will show something different. Take for example the Revel M16 or F208. You show a minimum of 4ohm for the M16 and 3.2 ohm for the F208. Revel lists the M16 at 6ohm nominal and the f208 at 8ohm nominal. Even though the manufacture does not specify either of these speakers as 4ohm, could they trigger this receiver to go into its power limiting mode (and stay there)?
From the review it wasn't clear to me that the power limiting could be an issue for consumers and not just on your test bench. Hopefully this can be dealt with by the manufacturer. This unit ticks a lot of boxes for the average home theater user and it is a shame it could get stuck in power limiting mode without consumers ever knowing it.

It is probably done on purpose to keep the warrantee rate low. Most people probably will not notice the diiference between 30 and 120 watts. If it wasn't on purpose why would it be so hard to reset and no indication?

 

[amirm]

Did you notice any relay clicks during this, or any of your testing? I’ve had some seemingly random relay clicks from mine.

I have headphones on so no, I didn't hear or pay attention.

 

[amirm]

Even though the manufacture does not specify either of these speakers as 4ohm, could they trigger this receiver to go into its power limiting mode (and stay there)?

Without knowing the exact algorithm, it is hard to say. You would need to push the amp at that frequency to clipping.

 

[amper42]

dang thats crazy, i returned my 3700 when i got the RZ50 because to me it sounded night and day difference.. Although i am using a monolith 7 chan amp

You will be better served with the RZ50. Dirac is far superior to Audyssey and the preamp is high quality. For most users, the RZ50 will sound much better than a Denon 3700. I have not seen the 4ohm protection issue reported by many owners. Mostly, I hear them praise how good it sounds. Sometimes it's best to follow your ears if it sounds great in your setup. External amps are a favorite for many AVR users. They should work well with the RZ50 too.

 

[Dj7675]

It is probably done on purpose to keep the warrantee rate low. Most people probably will not notice the diiference between 30 and 120 watts. If it wasn't on purpose why would it be so hard to reset and no indication?

Ar you saying it isn't a problem because most people won't know the difference?

 

[AlexanderM]

So if one uses 8 Ohm speakers, or a separate amp, it's good?

 

[ryanmh1]

Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.

It power limits based on the input signal? Then how is it that "With 8 ohm load, I didn't see this problem." So with NO load attached it triggers the limiter, but with an 8 ohm load attached, it doesn't? It's not impossible that Onkyo tied a VI limiter to an input signal, but it seems unlikely since output into 8 ohms would be miniscule.

What seems a more accurate statement is that there is insufficient data. The correct way to investigate this behavior would be for someone to hit it with a CEA tone burst and then with burst files of increasing duty cycle until it trips. Given the complete lack of complaints about power limiting from any users, it seems highly unlikely that this is a real issue in actual use. Since it's the primary complaint (and a legitimate one, if the VI limiter is engaging, permanently, without being attached to a load), it probably warrants a further look using actual program material and speakers.

 

[hmt]

Does the 3008 has SubEQ HT, or just XT32? Even just XT32 it can do a good job for the bass but above 200-300 Hz it would be hit and miss depending on the room, and if your speakers were designed with that BBC dip, you won't have the option to eliminate that dip even if you want to.

It had also SubEQ HT. But imo getting the correct delays for both Subs was always hit and miss with audyssey. And yes, the problem with older XT32 devices without the app was always that you can't limit corrections or get rid of the BBC Dip.

 

[tpeter]

So if one uses 8 Ohm speakers, or a separate amp, it's good?

I am using sep amp and its glorious

 

[amirm]

What seems a more accurate statement is that there is insufficient data. The correct way to investigate this behavior would be for someone to hit it with a CEA tone burst and then with burst files of increasing duty cycle until it trips. Given the complete lack of complaints about power limiting from any users, it seems highly unlikely that this is a real issue in actual use.

From "any users?" How would you know that? You surveyed every user? And what if it is happening but people don't know any better because there is no indicator?

As to how it enters this mode, as I said, the exact algorithm is unknown. My old Onkyo AVR would use the volume *position* to decide to turn on its fan. You would think that it would have a temp sensor but no, it used the volume control position. By the same token, there is myriad of ways the amp could be deciding to enter such a mode.

Such a thing needs to be documented and indication lit to inform the user. As it is, the opposite is implied with marketing material: "250 W/Ch THX® Certified Select RZ Series Dynamic Audio Amplification." Something like this was even written on the box making you think it has a ton of power.

And I don't care what it is doing: the fact that it requires unplugging it to reset is just wrong.

 

[dlaloum]

You will be better served with the RZ50. Dirac is far superior to Audyssey and the preamp is high quality. For most users, the RZ50 will sound much better than the Denon 3700 and the 4ohm protection issue has never been reported by a user with actual speakers attached to the receiver (instead of dummy loads). Sometimes it's best to follow your ears if it sounds great in your setup.

Hmm not quite - I have read at least one user review, where he mentioned distortion.... then did a full cold boot reset - and it went away.... sounded to me like he got hit by Nanny mode, and the amps were clipping

 

[Rottmannash]

That's an old THX legacy. Unfortunately a lot of AVRS are doing it that way. That includes Yamaha and D&M. With D&M that is somehow remedied since Audyssey let's the speakers roll of at 12 db via their target curve at the determined crossover frequency. This is however only working as long as the crossover is not changed afterwards. With the new multeq x tool you can manually set your speakers to roll of with 12 db at a frequency you chose which makes it quite easy to deal with it.

Not sure I understand the implication of this slope issue-can someone explain this to me? Does Dirac have anything to do with this issue or is it endemic to the AVR in any setting or configuration?