How did they measure back then?
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Distortion and S/N seemed good (going from memory) - power was excellent - lots of current, very capable at 4 ohm too.
Too much Jitter via the HDMI input (like HEAPS) - which was the norm for AVR's at the time - a few were starting to get jitter down... but rare
SPDIF Jitter was very good - by the standard at the time... best results were achieved using SPDIF (which is how I am using it, to this day)
Audyssey XT (not XT32) was adequate - but I always preferred it without the RoomEQ - always sounded more natural - and my system ain't half bad.... (this was my first experience / try with RoomEQ)
It also had biamping capability - you could allocate one of the channels for biamp, and use the onboard DSP for XO... tried it, but I think it just couldn't supply enough current for my speakers ... Athony Gallo used to demo them with a 500W@8ohm Spectron Musician amp.... so although the 876 is a muscley AVR, it isn't in the same order of magnitude as that! - I later tried the 876 with a pair of Crown XLS2500's - and that was a noticeable step up.... so the 876 also made a good pre-pro.
I will be sad to see it go, I have had an offer for it.... it's not much, but it will go to a home that appreciates it... and I am hoping that the Integra I have pre-ordered, arrives before I have to give it up.
The point is that we should differentiate more w.r.t results of AVR tests. The first comment of virtually every AVR test that doesnt measure virtually perfect are in the same "this is crap, SMSL is way better" vibe. That does not help anybody. Especially with the Onkyo it has to be stated that the preamp section is pretty got (regardless of "old" DACs). That amps are crap, that's true but this can be easily remedied.
My 20 year old Meridian processor is happily doing all its DRC and subwoofer xover at 96kHz .
So it’s quite doable , but I suppose mass production uses some outdated of the shelf solution. Suppose it would cost more in-house R&D to do your own thing . my pre/pro is old but it happily does all kinds of formats . So I suppose you can get the licenses sign the NDA and do the work , incredibly amounts of software development
Big audio manufacturer still have problems grasping software driven products, what it actually costs to do it rigth , they are still thinking in terms of hardware boxes ?
That’s said having a full digital path for 5.1 24/96 DVDA still does not make up for the speakers in my system ( a full digital Meridians home theater ) and I agree that hirez seems Useless in most cases . I want the discrete multichannel .
But point is that 96k or 192k processing can’t be hard to come by if you build your platform as an actual audio processor, not amp an then you send someone to source some multichannel chip on the cheap ?
What if CD had been 16/48 from the getgo and we evolved to 24/48 ( per channel ) today it would have been quite sufficient. The whole hirez thing stems from the good old RedBook migth be cutting it to close in some rare circumstances and a little more migth have been proper ? for that we get 24/356 downloads when 24/48 migth have been it , but bigger numbers sells .
So it’s quite doable , but I suppose mass production uses some outdated of the shelf solution. Suppose it would cost more in-house R&D to do your own thing . my pre/pro is old but it happily does all kinds of formats . So I suppose you can get the licenses sign the NDA and do the work , incredibly amounts of software development
Big audio manufacturer still have problems grasping software driven products, what it actually costs to do it rigth , they are still thinking in terms of hardware boxes ?
That’s said having a full digital path for 5.1 24/96 DVDA still does not make up for the speakers in my system ( a full digital Meridians home theater ) and I agree that hirez seems Useless in most cases . I want the discrete multichannel .
But point is that 96k or 192k processing can’t be hard to come by if you build your platform as an actual audio processor, not amp an then you send someone to source some multichannel chip on the cheap ?
What if CD had been 16/48 from the getgo and we evolved to 24/48 ( per channel ) today it would have been quite sufficient. The whole hirez thing stems from the good old RedBook migth be cutting it to close in some rare circumstances and a little more migth have been proper ? for that we get 24/356 downloads when 24/48 migth have been it , but bigger numbers sells .
Ismapics
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2020
- Messages
- 215
- Likes
- 285
@amirm You say: f you don't use the Pure mode -- which is probably how most of you use it -- you will lose performance:
Well most will not use the Pure mode. Most - me included Onkyo RZ820 - will never use pure mode. I do listed to music - I have Linn Bookshelf speakers almost no base - with it but its mostly for home theater. In that sense you need to room EQ and base management. Pure for HT just sounds thin and un usable. Cheers
Well most will not use the Pure mode. Most - me included Onkyo RZ820 - will never use pure mode. I do listed to music - I have Linn Bookshelf speakers almost no base - with it but its mostly for home theater. In that sense you need to room EQ and base management. Pure for HT just sounds thin and un usable. Cheers
Does Denon have lower internal sampling too? I would love to see this experiment done on a current Denon AVR.
That's an old THX legacy. Unfortunately a lot of AVRS are doing it that way. That includes Yamaha and D&M. With D&M that is somehow remedied since Audyssey let's the speakers roll of at 12 db via their target curve at the determined crossover frequency. This is however only working as long as the crossover is not changed afterwards. With the new multeq x tool you can manually set your speakers to roll of with 12 db at a frequency you chose which makes it quite easy to deal with it.
Yes, and I think they will work well without the much increased noise you apparently experienced when you tried to test an AVR (a Denon if I remember right) once before.
Benchmark RCA to XLRM Adapter Cable for Analog Audio - pin 3 to RCA shield
BENCHMARK STUDIO STAGE™ RCA TO XLRM ADAPTER CABLE CABLES ARE SOLD INDIVIDUALLY. Price is for one cable, order 2 for a stereo pair. Hand assembled in the USA with true silver solder Applications This special adapter cable connects unbalanced analog RCA outputs to balanced analog XLR inputs. Use...
I tested the Monoprice premier one on my AVR-X4400H with the VTV Purifi EVAL1 amp and worked fine with no audible increase in hum/hiss.
Or you can buy it from Ghentaudio, and since they sell the Hypex and Purifi kits, their interconnects must have been build to specs and tested on those XLR only amps.
Or you can buy the Benchmark's that costs a lot more, but may be better.
What is HEAPS?
The later models had XT32, beginning with the 3008, which I have. I haven't found a difference soundwise with / without except of course for less boomy bass.
Did the 876 really have an biamp / XO option? You could do that for the sub out but that was a preout only.
The biamp / XO option was advertised as the breakthrough novelty with the much later models (818, 929, 1010, 3010, 5010). Out of these, only the 1010 - 5010 have the good power amps. I don't remember this being implemented any of the earlier models.
I also had the 3008. Bought it because auf audyssey XT32. Hdmi did not fail but I had hissing when audyssey was switched on especially on the surrounds. The Denon 4500 does not have this problem. The Amps on the 3008 were quite beefy. The unit had two transformers. A small one and a really big one. Not compareable to the contemporary Onkyos.
Less global negative feedback. Something which nearly all class AB and the better class D designs use. You measure the error at the output and apply a correction at the input.
Ideally, you want the amp to have lots of open loop gain because errors will be corrected in proportion to the ratio of open loop gain / closed loop gain.
There was a (misguided in my eyes) school of thought that said you get better sound by making each stage as linear as possible at the cost of open loop gain and then you have (and need) less loop gain to correct for errors.
This was driven by the observation that when you optimize for loop gain at the cost of linearity, you may get TIM (transient intermodulation distortion), but this phenomenon is really more about the slew rate of the early stages. Also, when you apply some negative feedback, there is a regime where you bring down THD but acutally get more higher order harmonics. The right answer is to apply more feedback (cf. Bruno Putzey excellent article about the F-word).
The Onkyo triple darlingtons have excellent topology (i.e. all the extra transistors are there to linearize the stages), yet they are degenerated more than I consider optimal.
This post above had results from a Marantz, which would be the same as Denons, and they're consistent with my understanding of Denon operation.
I include a 12dB high pass filter in my Dirac target curves and pull the left curtain all the way down to include the slope of the filter in the full range for all speakers. It has cleaned up the bass tremendously. All processors should have selectable slopes for their crossovers.
- Joined
- May 27, 2020
- Messages
- 552
- Likes
- 461
If I read correctly, using external amps for all channels in a 7.2ch configuration would produce a 96-97db SINAD performance, is that correct? If so, then it's about 5db worse SINAD than an x3700 in preamp mode, except it includes IMAX/THX certification and playback modes, plus Dirac.
Sounds like the better option to me.
Sounds like the better option to me.
Some of the complaints seem a bit overblown. For only $1400 you get a product with Dirac built into it, and with 9 amplification channels also built in, and 11.2 processing channels. This is about the only product on earth that gives you that. And it does it with sufficient output at the RCA jacks to drive any external amplifier. The complaints about "Golly, gee, it resamples" are just nonsense. So does Audyssey XT32, which is the ONLY reasonable competition anywhere even remotely close to this price. That's not a legitimate complaint vis-a-vis any other AVR product. People who buy this are going to buy it because it has Dirac vs XT32. Costs $1400. Has Dirac.
As for the "power" being an issue... Two stepped power sweeps were completed before limiting, and the product performed to specification, putting out around 250W on a power sweep at 1% THD+N. And it put out perhaps 170W at 1% into 8ohms, blowing its manufacturer specification out of the water. The only thing arguably missing is whether it will pass a CEA burst test exactly at 220W. If it does that, then it does what Onkyo says it will do, and more.
I've never even considered upgrading my "getting older" Denon with XT32 because the new models just didn't bring anything to the party. This does. The only real question is how long it can sustain a burst (which I believe should be possible to measure using the APx data recorder) before kicking in the current limiter. The only flaw here is that it doesn't seem to auto-reset it, but that only matters if it's actually possible to trigger it in real use with real speakers. Even if it does, an external amp fixes that easily enough anyway..
As for the "power" being an issue... Two stepped power sweeps were completed before limiting, and the product performed to specification, putting out around 250W on a power sweep at 1% THD+N. And it put out perhaps 170W at 1% into 8ohms, blowing its manufacturer specification out of the water. The only thing arguably missing is whether it will pass a CEA burst test exactly at 220W. If it does that, then it does what Onkyo says it will do, and more.
I've never even considered upgrading my "getting older" Denon with XT32 because the new models just didn't bring anything to the party. This does. The only real question is how long it can sustain a burst (which I believe should be possible to measure using the APx data recorder) before kicking in the current limiter. The only flaw here is that it doesn't seem to auto-reset it, but that only matters if it's actually possible to trigger it in real use with real speakers. Even if it does, an external amp fixes that easily enough anyway..
