On DACs

[watchnerd]

FWIW, the above cartridge example was a powerful example of pattern recognition training and then what happens if you suddenly shift the relevant pattern.

 

[danadam]

Sorry, I don't know how to write replies in parts of the text above

I just copy/paste the QUOTE tags. It becomes a nightmare to keep track of really fast,

Select a piece of text you want to reply to, a "Reply" button should appear below the selection. Click it and the selected text will be put in the comment box at the place of the cursor. Select another piece of text etc...

 

[MrHifiTunes]

Of course it's not the same sound. One sound is different from another sound, but all sounds are real. Audio that is digitalised is then converted back to audio and made "real". I still don't understand what this has to do with DACs. The job of the DAC is simple. Convert digital to audio without distortion, coloration etc.

You actually say the same thing like me. The job of the DAC is to create audio without distortion, coloration etc....meaning reproducing it like it was originally (= what I call real sound). DACs still can not do this to this day.

 

[threni]

I think marketing added that embellishment.
There is certainly not an atomic clock in this device

Your honour, there is a clock in my client's product, is there not? Furthermore, is it not the case that all matter is made up of atoms?

 

[Sukie]

DACs still can not do this to this day.

What's your evidence for this? I'm not talking about opinion or sighted testing. The measurements of SOTA DACs make it clear that they do convert digital to analogue in a fully transparent (and thereby "real" way).

 

[MrHifiTunes]

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough for you. I was after some sort of citation, not a video on behalf of $1000+ DAC manufacturers.

I'm not convinced that, given two DACs, where one performs better than another, it's meaningful to say:
1) the better one has a "smaller sound stage" (what does this mean? can you measure it? where's the write up of the correctly performed test?)
2) you can improve the sound stage simply by "trying to lower signal/noise ratio more and more". It's not trying that'll make the difference. I'm not sure that, given two DACs which perform very well and where the noise is inaudible, you're going to get any real benefit from further increasing the signal/noise ratio. Unless the qutest performs really, really badly. Has it been reviewed on this site? I'm confident that, if the soundstage was improved by tiny changes in the signal/noise ratio of already essentially perfect D to A conversion, this would have been discovered and written about long about.

That's exactly the answer I,m looking for :
1) Can we measure it? How do you measure difference in soundstage and imagine? How do we compare DACs on these subjects? I'm only using my ears now to hear the difference.
2) I say the same thing, I don't believe that lowing the signal/noise ratio is the way to go. There must be something else but I don';t know what. What has influence on sounds stage perception for our brain?

 

[MrHifiTunes]

What's your evidence for this? I'm not talking about opinion or sighted testing. The measurements of SOTA DACs make it clear that they do convert digital to analogue in a fully transparent (and thereby "real" way).

What you say is that you can not hear the difference between the real sound (=live) and a recording of it?
Fully transparent yes...but there is more to it then that. My system can not reproduce a full orchestra like it is live...

 

[Sukie]

What you say is that you can not hear the difference between the real sound (=live) and a recording of it?
Fully transparent yes...but there is more to it then that. My system can not reproduce a full orchestra like it is live...

Of course it can't. That's not the point of an audio system. The best you can hope for is that it reproduces what was recorded with the highest possible fidelity. You can then equalise/correct etc. to get the sound that suits you best.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

Of course it can't. That's not the point of an audio system. The best you can hope for is that it reproduces what was recorded with the highest possible fidelity. You can then equalise/correct etc. to get the sound that suits you best.

That is were we are today...Yes..That why I say we don't reach that level yet of real sound. That's where an audio system still have to improve...bringing the highest level of today to a higher level tomorrow. For DACs we reach the point of full audible transparency... this doenst mean they still can not improve more in other fields. I think the final goal should be that real live sound and reproduced sound should be the same to our ears...If we ever reach that? I don't know...but it should be the goal....

 

[Chrispy]

That is were we are today...Yes..That why I say we don't reach that level yet of real sound. That's where an audio system still have to improve...bringing the highest level of today to a higher level tomorrow. For DACs we reach the point of full audible transparency... this doenst mean they still can not improve more in other fields. I think the final goal should be that real live sound and reproduced sound should be the same to our ears...If we ever reach that? I don't know...but it should be the goal....

Its mostly in the speakers and your room, not the electronics. Soundstage in a dac, seriously?

 

[Sukie]

That is were we are today...Yes..That why I say we don't reach that level yet of real sound. That's where an audio system still have to improve...bringing the highest level of today to a higher level tomorrow. For DACs we reach the point of full audible transparency... this doenst mean they still can not improve more in other fields. I think the final goal should be that real live sound and reproduced sound should be the same to our ears...If we ever reach that? I don't know...but it should be the goal....

I repeat - this quest has nothing to do with DACs. The DAC is a humble piece of equipment that is already doing its job. Exactly where will these improvements that you're looking for come from?

I still don't get your distinctions between real vs unreal. The sound that is recorded comes from real performers that are performing real music. What could be more real than that?

 

[threni]

That's exactly the answer I,m looking for :
1) Can we measure it? How do you measure difference in soundstage and imagine? How do we compare DACs on these subjects? I'm only using my ears now to hear the difference.
2) I say the same thing, I don't believe that lowing the signal/noise ratio is the way to go. There must be something else but I don';t know what. What has influence on sounds stage perception for our brain?

Given the chain "audio file -> dac -> amp -> headphones I'm pretty sure the soundstage exists in the audio file and/or can be created/altered in the headphones. I'm not sure the dac/amp have anything to do with it (assuming they're not actively harming its perception through being a bit crap).

It would be a little like getting a ebook from your file server, copying it to your laptop, unzipping it and opening it in an app which then speaks the words to you, and hoping that changing the wifi settings or the parameters used in the app you used to copy the file from the server will make the metaphors and similes employed by the author more interesting.

Perhaps Chord have a video about how they developed a $1000+ version of SCP which has the -boostadjective parameter, to make the reader think that they really were in Hogwarts.

Why this curious obsession that there's a problem; that it can be addressed in the DAC, and what does it have to do with signal/noise ratio? Did you read this somewhere? Because you've been asked several times and not explained where it came from.

 

[BDWoody]

For DACs we reach the point of full audible transparency...

Right. So time to move to things like Speakers and your room. You seem to waiting for a DAC to do more than it was designed to do. Same with amps, cables, and most every other solid state device.

Signal in, signal out. Measure differences.

Transducers are motors with their own issues.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

So you can see which is which, and there is no attempt to match output levels?

Try again with controls. Until then, you are simply promulgating industry propaganda. As a science site, we look to what can be repeatedly demonstrated, not simply repeatedly claimed.

Have you ever done a real listening test? As in, level matched and no peeking? It can be quite a learning experience.

I can see which is which but I didn't have any preference between then as there are not my DACs...and I didnt had any background on how they would sound.
About real listening test, I have to help myself with what I have. I adjust the levels with a Db meter average and peek level. Not 's the best solution possible but the best I can do.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

Its mostly in the speakers and your room, not the electronics. Soundstage in a dac, seriously?

I agree with you. And I think mostly the way of recording has a big influence on it too. Why talking about soundstage in a DAC.. Many say that DAC's have reached the level of what is max audible so no further improvements can be made. So buy a DAC and use it for the next 50 years. I'm thinking that DACs can still be made better then they are today.

 

[Killingbeans]

Select a piece of text you want to reply to, a "Reply" button should appear below the selection. Click it and the selected text will be put in the comment box at the place of the cursor. Select another piece of text etc...

Yes! Thank you! You just made my time on ASR a thousand times easier

Should have known there was a function like that

 

[Chrispy]

I agree with you. And I think mostly the way of recording has a big influence on it too. Why talking about soundstage in a DAC.. Many say that DAC's have reached the level of what is max audible so no further improvements can be made. So buy a DAC and use it for the next 50 years. I'm thinking that DACs can still be made better then they are today.

I was thinking more as to what's in your control. So what yet is to be improved upon?

 

[MrHifiTunes]

I was thinking more as to what's in your control. So what yet is to improve upon?

What's in my control...not much only searing for better audio components who can bring me closer to the final goal and that is true sound reproduction in all is facets. Is that not what we all searching for? It's that what make this our hobby? If not than, for me, is no point of being on forums like this. Then it's better to just buy some audio gear and enjoy your music and be happy with it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That is were we are today...Yes..That why I say we don't reach that level yet of real sound. That's where an audio system still have to improve...bringing the highest level of today to a higher level tomorrow. For DACs we reach the point of full audible transparency... this doenst mean they still can not improve more in other fields. I think the final goal should be that real live sound and reproduced sound should be the same to our ears...If we ever reach that? I don't know...but it should be the goal....

You won't be able to get there with just stereo.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I can see which is which but I didn't have any preference between then as there are not my DACs...and I didnt had any background on how they would sound.
About real listening test, I have to help myself with what I have. I adjust the levels with a Db meter average and peek level. Not 's the best solution possible but the best I can do.

Db meter level matching is not precise enough. You must match voltage at speaker leads or voltage at input of the amp. Test signals are best for level matching.