On DACs

[honn]

Hi all,

So, since an objectively good DAC is transparent and shouldn't add anything to the sound reproduction, among the top 10 DACs (by SINAD) reviewed on ASR, say between the $11,500 Mola Mola Tambaqui, the $750 Topping D90, the $500 Gustard X16, and, just in case, even the only $130 Topping E30, is it then correct to say these about them:

1. that there won't be any difference in the humanly audible sonic performance among them? (say psychological biases from knowing the prices, looks, etc, are removed through a properly designed and executed blind-test control).
2. that the relevant differences among them are only prices, aesthetics, material/build quality, features/connectivity, etc, everything else but the audible sound quality?
3. that if the audible sound quality and value are your only priorities (I know most of the times it's not the case but hypothetically), then you should always buy the Topping E30 than the 8,800% more expensive Mola Mola DAC?

Thanks!

 

[majingotan]

Yes to all three points

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd say one could have reasons to spend more than the E30. Multiple inputs, or in the case of the RME it has built in PEQ capability, or you need more output voltage etc. But other than prestige I don't know of a reason to spend Mola Mola money. I'd like to hear from the designer why he thinks it is worth more.

 

[honn]

I'd say one could have reasons to spend more than the E30. Multiple inputs, or in the case of the RME it has built in PEQ capability, or you need more output voltage etc. But other than prestige I don't know of a reason to spend Mola Mola money. I'd like to hear from the designer why he thinks it is worth more.

In points 2 & 3, I acknowledged that people may have different motivations, but if the criterion is solely the audible sound quality, certainly there's no difference between the E30 and Mola Mola?

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Not strictly related, but: Over the last year, I assembled many Rasp4 as Roon endpoints. I configured them with USBC with an Apple Adapter, HDMI out and Spdif extractor into an once Sterophile liked DAC, a Hd2Dac, a DAC+, HDMI into an AVR, simple build in earphone output. In no case did I detect any immediate difference in sound, or anything that would let me hear any difference right away when connected to a master system.
I configures those boxes with various amps and loudspeakers, about 6 different sets. And every one sounded differently with an immediately noticeable sound characteristics. Swapping loudspeakers and amps made a difference too.
Sure, it is nice to play with DACs in the 100-500€ region as this is not too much money burnt and one could believe it makes a difference. Changing amps and loudspeakers is 10 times more expensive, but much more rewarding.

 

[honn]

Not strictly related, but: Over the last year, I assembled many Rasp4 as Roon endpoints. I configured them with USBC with an Apple Adapter, HDMI out and Spdif extractor into an once Sterophile liked DAC, a Hd2Dac, a DAC+, HDMI into an AVR, simple build in earphone output. In no case did I detect any immediate difference in sound, or anything that would let me hear any difference right away when connected to a master system.
I configures those boxes with various amps and loudspeakers, about 6 different sets. And every one sounded differently with an immediately noticeable sound characteristics. Swapping loudspeakers and amps made a difference too.
Sure, it is nice to play with DACs in the 100-500€ region as this is not too much money burnt and one could believe it makes a difference. Changing amps and loudspeakers is 10 times more expensive, but much more rewarding.

Oh, I think changing speakers is the most obvious audible difference for sure. Speakers are the most money I'd put in, followed perhaps by the amp. Although, I'm not sure if amps would make that much difference if the state of amplification one day approaches the current state of the art that DACs today have.

For instance, I thought I heard some sonic difference between my Topping PA3 amp and XTZ Edge A2-300 amp.., but I cannot be sure until some controlled blind-testing method is applied. Both definitely sounded perfectly fine through the speakers.

 

[Killingbeans]

3. that if the audible sound quality and value are your only priorities (I know most of the times it's not the case but hypothetically), then you should always buy the Topping E30 than the 8,800% more expensive Mola Mola DAC?

In many cases I'd bet even the E30 would be a waste of money compared to what you already have in a phone/tablet/PC/whatever.

Nagging uncertainty drives a big part of the industry

 

[Blake Klondike]

I have possibly the least electrical engineering knowledge of anyone on ASR, but I did have an experience that seems relevant: I have a friend whose job is engineering to minimize distortion in chips for cell phone amplifier tower, so all the specs Amir measures here are his daily bread and butter. I sent him some links to ASR reviews of expensive DACS and reviews from other places, of the "toe tapping" variety.

His response was "This is fascinating-- the chips in those DACS have been essentially the same for decades. We solved the problem of transparent conversion and amplification a long time ago, and every 1st year EE student knows it. ASR seems to be filled with people who are basically just having a ball analyzing and studying products in search of ingenious design solutions. The other sites are filled with hilarious nonsense from people using words they only kind of understand to misrepresent phenomena that they definitely do not understand."

I thought that was very telling, coming from an expert who has 0% investment in or experience with luxury hifi lifestyle culture, but total expertise in the science that underlies the equipment.

 

[Blake Klondike]

In many cases I'd bet even the E30 would be a waste of money compared to what you already have in a phone/tablet/PC/whatever.

Nagging uncertainty drives a big part of the industry

Good way of putting it. Has Amir tested the onboard DACS on any widely-used phones? Would be interesting to see what the DAC specs are for a Galaxy 10 or the newest IPhone, etc.

 

[honn]

In many cases I'd bet even the E30 would be a waste of money compared to what you already have in a phone/tablet/PC/whatever.

Nagging uncertainty drives a big part of the industry

Yeah, perhaps. I'd say to be on the safe side, if a DAC has a SINAD that is just over the audibility threshold would be the sufficient condition.

 

[Killingbeans]

Has Amir tested the onboard DACS on any widely-used phones?

I think this is the closest we get: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oogle-pixel-4a-smartphone-audio-review.16251/

Anemic headphone amp, but perfectly clean DAC.

 

[Killingbeans]

I thought that was very telling, coming from an expert who has 0% investment in or experience with luxury hifi lifestyle culture, but total expertise in the science that underlies the equipment.

I can relate. I won't claim to have total expertise in any science (not even close), but I'm lucky enough to have a technical background that lets me cut through the most blatant BS like a hot knife through butter.

I gives a lot of perspective to have worked with the innards of stupendously sensitive electronics that manage to do amazing things without all of the seemingly essential voodoo needed in audio gear

 

[BDWoody]

Good way of putting it. Has Amir tested the onboard DACS on any widely-used phones? Would be interesting to see what the DAC specs are for a Galaxy 10 or the newest IPhone, etc.

Not many... The LG phones tend to be well regarded in terms of audio.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-measurement-of-lg-g7-thinq-smartphone.4468/

 

[richard12511]

Hi all,

So, since an objectively good DAC is transparent and shouldn't add anything to the sound reproduction, among the top 10 DACs (by SINAD) reviewed on ASR, say between the $11,500 Mola Mola Tambaqui, the $750 Topping D90, the $500 Gustard X16, and, just in case, even the only $130 Topping E30, is it then correct to say these about them:

1. that there won't be any difference in the humanly audible sonic performance among them? (say psychological biases from knowing the prices, looks, etc, are removed through a properly designed and executed blind-test control).
2. that the relevant differences among them are only prices, aesthetics, material/build quality, features/connectivity, etc, everything else but the audible sound quality?
3. that if the audible sound quality and value are your only priorities (I know most of the times it's not the case but hypothetically), then you should always buy the Topping E30 than the 8,800% more expensive Mola Mola DAC?

Thanks!

Yes to all three.

 

[richard12511]

In points 2 & 3, I acknowledged that people may have different motivations, but if the criterion is solely the audible sound quality, certainly there's no difference between the E30 and Mola Mola?

That’s correct. You’ve gotta get down into the “red tier” DACs before there starts being any audible difference. Even then, the difference between the best DAC and the average red tier DAC is smaller than the difference between your left and right speaker.

If you’re just worried about *audible performance, don’t be. DAC measurements are pointless(for the most part). Focus on features, connectivity, aesthetics, and price. The best DAC is the DAC with the best combination of those attributes.

 

[TheWalkman]

Hi all,

So, since an objectively good DAC is transparent and shouldn't add anything to the sound reproduction, among the top 10 DACs (by SINAD) reviewed on ASR, say between the $11,500 Mola Mola Tambaqui, the $750 Topping D90, the $500 Gustard X16, and, just in case, even the only $130 Topping E30, is it then correct to say these about them:

1. that there won't be any difference in the humanly audible sonic performance among them? (say psychological biases from knowing the prices, looks, etc, are removed through a properly designed and executed blind-test control).
2. that the relevant differences among them are only prices, aesthetics, material/build quality, features/connectivity, etc, everything else but the audible sound quality?
3. that if the audible sound quality and value are your only priorities (I know most of the times it's not the case but hypothetically), then you should always buy the Topping E30 than the 8,800% more expensive Mola Mola DAC?

Thanks!

Start here, work your way up the DAC food chain and report back:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/

(This little experiment will cost you a whopping investment of $10 for an Apple Dongle to start and I’m betting you won’t hear a great deal of difference when you finally drop $11,500 for a Mola Mola, whatever the hell that is.)

Today, $500 - $1000 will get you a fantastic sounding system that one could have only dreamed of (and cost you many thousands) in the Dark Ages of High End Audio (1970’s).

IMHO, “diminishing return“ is concept that is alive and doing quite well in the crazy World of Audiophilia.

 

[wjc]

According to their website, the Mola Mola DAC uses an atomic clock which means better frequency stability. This contributes to the higher cost. It's like having a Timex watch that will always tell you the correct time for the next million years. So, it's more than an audible difference.

 

[honn]

That’s correct. You’ve gotta get down into the “red tier” DACs before there starts being any audible difference. Even then, the difference between the best DAC and the average red tier DAC is smaller than the difference between your left and right speaker.

If you’re just worried about *audible performance, don’t be. DAC measurements are pointless(for the most part). Focus on features, connectivity, aesthetics, and price. The best DAC is the DAC with the best combination of those attributes.

Perfect! I had that conclusion in mind, but thought I should confirm with some peeps here haha, super, no need to spend too much on DAC and most fund can go to better speakers!

 

[honn]

According to their website, the Mola Mola DAC uses an atomic clock which means better frequency stability. This contributes to the higher cost. It's like having a Timex watch that will always tell you the correct time for the next million years. So, it's more than an audible difference.

The atomic clock doesn't mean it translates to audibly better sound. I think the Topping E30 is equally audibly good, and most people won't know the difference in a blind test.

 

[dc655321]

the Mola Mola DAC uses an atomic clock

I think marketing added that embellishment.
There is certainly not an atomic clock in this device