On DACs

[Chrispy]

What's in my control...not much only searing for better audio components who can bring me closer to the final goal and that is true sound reproduction in all is facets. Is that not what we all searching for? It's that what make this our hobby? If not than, for me, is no point of being on forums like this. Then it's better to just buy some audio gear and enjoy your music and be happy with it.

I'm interested in gear. I'm not so interested in constantly shopping for the emperor's clothes, tho. I'm quite happy with most of my gear.

 

[BDWoody]

I can see which is which but I didn't have any preference between then as there are not my DACs...and I didnt had any background on how they would sound.
About real listening test, I have to help myself with what I have. I adjust the levels with a Db meter average and peek level. Not 's the best solution possible but the best I can do.

Unfortunately, that's about as far as most get.

Yes, it can be a hassle to implement controls, but unfortunately without them our impressions (humans I mean) will be very unreliable.

I hope we aren't being trolled here...but you are basically saying the same thing over and over without addressing much of what has been answered.

Searching for the missing magic in solid state devices is not going to get you very far. Those are known/solved problems. They aren't about music, they are about engineering. The source material, and your transducers/room are going to be where new advances come from, and where the biggest improvements for most people are to be found.

 

[Sukie]

What's in my control...not much only searing for better audio components who can bring me closer to the final goal and that is true sound reproduction in all is facets. Is that not what we all searching for? It's that what make this our hobby? If not than, for me, is no point of being on forums like this. Then it's better to just buy some audio gear and enjoy your music and be happy with it.

My hobby is listening to music. I like to do that on the best equipment that is available within my price range. I like to discuss with others how I go about doing this. I like to read amirm's reviews and I like to learn from the accumulated experience of senior members. I have no interest in questing after "true sound reproduction in all is facets" as I don't think that's a meaningful phrase.

 

[Killingbeans]

As you said, the system creates an illusion. An imaginary sound. It is the trick to make our brain think that it's real. Therefor we need to understand how the ear-brain function works.

I disagree. An illusion and something imaginary are two completely different things.

When a magician performs on stage his props are real (same as the sound from your speakers), but he/she presents them in a way to guide your perception (same as microphone placement, mixing, speakers + room placement). The imaginary part comes from you interpretation of what is being presented. The illusion itself is real.

1) Can we measure it? How do you measure difference in soundstage and imagine? How do we compare DACs on these subjects? I'm only using my ears now to hear the difference.

Controlled blind testing with precise level matching.

2) I say the same thing, I don't believe that lowing the signal/noise ratio is the way to go. There must be something else but I don';t know what. What has influence on sounds stage perception for our brain?

Cognitive bias.

 

[watchnerd]

I hope we aren't being trolled here...but you are basically saying the same thing over and over without addressing much of what has been answered.

Cognitive dissonance takes time to unwind.

 

[BDWoody]

Cognitive dissonance takes time to unwind.

And effort...
That often seems to be the rub.

 

[watchnerd]

And effort...
That often seems to be the rub.

People have to want to change.

 

[watchnerd]

Then it's better to just buy some audio gear and enjoy your music and be happy with it.

Yes, that's correct.

Time spent here is time not spent listening to music.

It's a cruel fact.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, that's correct.

Time spent here is time not spent listening to music.

It's a cruel fact.

I usually am listening to music while spending time here....

 

[watchnerd]

I usually am listening to music while spending time here....

Not me.

I'm either listening to nothing (like right now, too early) or listening to test tones.

I don't like engaging in rational discussion when I listen to music.

Plus, if you're posting here, you're not really listening.

There is a difference, IMHO, between listening to music and music is playing.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I can see which is which but I didn't have any preference between then as there are not my DACs...and I didnt had any background on how they would sound.
About real listening test, I have to help myself with what I have. I adjust the levels with a Db meter average and peek level. Not 's the best solution possible but the best I can do.

You need to check the voltage outputs of DAC and match the voltage outputs at a certain frequency before doing listening tests. A cheap multimeter would do. This is what I wrote in another thread:

..........

If all you have done is keeping all equipment the same, but just switched the DAC, it is entirely possible to hear differences between DAC.

The reason is simple. DAC don't all output the same voltages when being fed same digital signals.

I have done many voltage measurements and blind tests for the two DAC I bought late last year. Using them as-is, differences between DAC are audible.

But, once I voltage matched the DAC (using Topping L30 to increase voltage output of E30 at 120 Hz), and both DAC have similar voltages from 120 Hz to 5 kHz, it then became practically impossible to distinguish them.

So keep this voltage differences in mind when doing your blind tests.

You can see my voltage measurements at
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/post-622482
...........

 

[Killingbeans]

I'm either listening to nothing (like right now, too early) or listening to test tones.

I don't like engaging in rational discussion when I listen to music.

Plus, if you're posting here, you're not really listening.

There is a difference, IMHO, between listening to music and music is playing.

Alternatively you could listen to this: https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php

The 'Speech Blocker' preset works wonders for me.

 

[Leporello]

My point of all this is that still to this day people don't fully understand how the human ear works. (there are also studies ongoing to get rid of tinitus by retraining the brain)

In high-end audio "appeal to unknown possibilities" has always been a popular logical fallacy. That we do not "fully" understand one thing or another - there may be something we do not know - is a familiar version of this. However, if you want to use this strategy in your argumentation, it is you who has to provide verified counterexamples which challenge our current understanding.

 

[Chrispy]

Not me.

I'm either listening to nothing (like right now, too early) or listening to test tones.

I don't like engaging in rational discussion when I listen to music.

Plus, if you're posting here, you're not really listening.

There is a difference, IMHO, between listening to music and music is playing.

LOL...I can chew gum at the same time, too....multi tasking. Why would you listen to test tones, tho?

 

[watchnerd]

LOL...I can chew gum at the same time, too....multi tasking. Why would you listen to test tones, tho?

How else do you hear them?

There are certain things where it's quicker for me to listen to a test tone than to measure it.

Especially in the bass, where it over laps in the spectrum with my double bass or electric bass.

 

[Chrispy]

How else do you hear them?

There are certain things where it's quicker for me to listen to a test tone than to measure it.

Especially in the bass, where it over laps in the spectrum with my double bass or electric bass.

Now you're playing your bass while you post? Weird.

 

[watchnerd]

Now you're playing your bass while you post? Weird.

Sometimes.

But not songs.

Messing around with, for example, bass amp overdrive settings.

 

[Chrispy]

Sometimes.

But not songs.

Messing around with, for example, bass amp overdrive settings.

Is this while gazing lustfully at your integrated amp?

 

[watchnerd]

Is this while gazing lustfully at your integrated amp?

The reel to reel deck, maybe.

With the current Devialet, there isn't much to gaze at.

 

[RobS]

Hi all,

So, since an objectively good DAC is transparent and shouldn't add anything to the sound reproduction, among the top 10 DACs (by SINAD) reviewed on ASR, say between the $11,500 Mola Mola Tambaqui, the $750 Topping D90, the $500 Gustard X16, and, just in case, even the only $130 Topping E30, is it then correct to say these about them:

1. that there won't be any difference in the humanly audible sonic performance among them? (say psychological biases from knowing the prices, looks, etc, are removed through a properly designed and executed blind-test control).
2. that the relevant differences among them are only prices, aesthetics, material/build quality, features/connectivity, etc, everything else but the audible sound quality?
3. that if the audible sound quality and value are your only priorities (I know most of the times it's not the case but hypothetically), then you should always buy the Topping E30 than the 8,800% more expensive Mola Mola DAC?

Thanks!

1. Depends on the rest of your chain and possibly recordings.

2. The DACs listed should sound different from each other, but its going to vary in degree, possibly hair-splitting. Every DAC implementation will sound different. Sometimes noticeably and sometimes extremely hard to distinguish. Again a lot of that relies on how resolving your transducers and amplifiers are. It won't matter if the rest of your gear can't resolve.

3. I buy DACs based on how they sound and how they work in my system. I'm a purist in that I rather have a dedicated DAC with no features. Usually if digital volume controls are implemented, they will hamper a DAC's performance (see Emotiva DC-1).

If you get two DACs, and you can't hear any difference between the two, then just buy based on the features you want and/or lowest price.